Iraq and WWII -- A point of view.

WAR

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Intl. Intelligence
Walker's World: Iraq, Dec. 7 and WWII


By MARTIN WALKER
UPI Editor

WASHINGTON, Dec. 6 (UPI) -- On this anniversary of the attack on Pearl Harbor, it is worth noting that in the 30 months between Dec. 7, 1941, and D-Day, the United States raised an army of 10 million men that was fit to take on Hitler's Wehrmacht, while also defeating Japan with the U.S. Navy and Marines.

More than 30 months have now passed since the fall of Baghdad, and the United States has not been able to train and build an Iraqi army that is fit to deploy alone. The contrast is more than telling; it reveals the fundamental problem of the Bush administration with the misadventure in Iraq.

In those 30 months of World War II between Pearl Harbor and the Normandy beaches, the government and people of the United States were in absolute and implacable agreement that they were in a war, in a fight to the finish that required the mobilization of all national resources.

Having lost 3,000 of its people to another sneak attack in September 2001, the Bush administration has used the rhetoric of war, but never really meant it. President Bush himself has shrunk from the reality of his own speeches. He has declared a global war on terrorism, pursued yet more tax cuts, and then gone on holiday. The Washington Post reported that as of August 2003, Bush had spent all or part of 166 days of his presidency at his ranch in Crawford, Texas. Add in the travel time and the days spent at Camp David and at the family estate in Kennebunkport, Maine, and Bush had taken 27 percent of his presidency -- 250 days -- on vacation.

But he had time to connive at the crushing of those who dared to suggest that the Emperor had no clothes. Gen. Eric Shinseki, U.S. Army chief of staff, was derided and marginalized when he dared to state the obvious to the Senate Armed Services Committee, that the occupation of Iraq would require hundreds of thousands of troops.

"Wildly off the mark" blustered then Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, as he testified before the House Budget committee in February, 2003 -- and also pooh-poohed estimates that the war and occupation could cost over $100 billion. (Currently costs are over $300 billion and counting.)

"Every time we get a briefing on the war plan, it immediately goes down six different branches to see what the scenarios look like. If we costed each and every one, the costs would range from $10 billion to $100 billion," Wolfowitz said then. He went on to say that Iraqis would welcome an American-led liberation force that "stayed as long as necessary but left as soon as possible," but would oppose a long-term occupation. At least he was right about that.

And now, 32 months after the fall of Baghdad, the Bush administration finally seems to have got its priorities right. The new White House strategy document, "Victory in Iraq," stresses the need to build and train the Iraqi army and police so they can do the job themselves.

"The security track involves carrying out a campaign to defeat the terrorists and neutralize the insurgency, developing Iraqi security forces, and helping the Iraqi government. It seeks to clear areas of enemy control by remaining on the offensive, killing and capturing enemy fighters and denying them safe-havens, and to hold areas freed from enemy influence by ensuring that they remain under the control of the Iraqi government with an adequate Iraqi security force presence," the White House document says. "The key to this will be the success in building Iraqi Security Forces and the capacity of local institutions to deliver services, advance the rule of law, and nurture civil society."

The Bush administration has, of course, been saying this sort of thing for some time. In February 2004, 22 months ago, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld claimed, "There are over 210,000 Iraqis serving in the security forces. That's an amazing accomplishment."

Indeed it would have been amazing, if true in any meaningful way. Those 210,000 Iraqis were those on the ration strength, unarmed, untrained and deserting as fast as they signed up for a meal and a salary. Seven months later, in September 2004, Rumsfeld said that "95,000 trained Iraqi troops were taking part in security operations."

That depends on what is meant by the word "trained." On Sept. 29 this year, just 9 weeks ago, Gen. George Casey testified before Congress that the number of Iraqi battalions rated at the highest level of readiness, capable of independent operations without U.S. support, had dropped from three to one. One battalion is approximately 700 men.

To be fair to Casey, he went on to say "three dozen army and special police battalions rated at Level 2 or above," meaning they are able to take the lead in combat as long as they have support from coalition forces. Three dozen battalions total roughly 25,200 troops. That is good as far as it goes, but after 32 months of occupation and supposed support and training of Iraqi forces, it is pitiful. The insurgent leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is probably raising and training his troops faster than that.

"To be responsible, one needs to stop defining success in Iraq as the absence of terrorist attacks," Rumsfeld argued this week, and he has a point.

There is good news, and promising trends. The numbers of Iraqis who have twice taken the opportunity to vote in the past year are heartening. The evidence of the emergence of an Iraqi political discourse, with Kurd and Shiite and Sunni leaders all taking part in last month's Cairo conference, organized by the Arab League and including some who are coyly described as "close to the insurgency" is also significant and hopeful.

The Cairo conference made a real breakthrough when it concluded with the joint demand for "the withdrawal of foreign forces in accordance with a timetable." There could be no better sign of a real coalition "Mission Accomplished" than the emergence of an elected and legitimate Iraqi government sufficiently stable, secure and self-confident to thank the coalition forces for a job well done, and to then ask the foreign troops to leave.

Indeed, the Cairo conference looked forward to precisely such an event, while stressing their common support for "the establishment of an immediate national program for rebuilding the armed forces through drills, preparation and being armed, on a sound basis that will allow it to guard Iraq's borders and to get control of the security situation."

According to the London-based al-Hayat, perhaps the most respected single newspaper in the Arab press, leaders of three of the main Sunni resistance groups -- the Islamic Army, the Bloc of Holy Warriors, and the Revolution of 1920 Brigades -- privately assured American and Arab officials at the Cairo conference that they were prepared to hunt down their supposed ally, al-Qaida's terrorist mastermind in Iraq al-Zarqawi, and put him into the custody of the Iraqi government, as part of a negotiated settlement that would have to include a timetable for withdrawal of foreign troops.

That al-Hayat report has not been denied, and European diplomatic sources have told United Press International they believe it to be true. If it is true, then we may be closer to the endgame in Iraq than it might seem from the grim daily litany of terror victims and ambushes, and from the painfully slow training schedule of the Iraqi security forces. For along with almost 2,500 dead coalition troops, and at least 10 times that number of dead Iraqis, the tragedy of this occupation has been the long and self-deluding waste of time by the Bush administration.

On that World War II timetable with which this article began, and which comes so immediately to mind on this Dec. 7 anniversary day of Pearl Harbor, the American, British and Canadian allies had not just landed in Normandy; after the 32 months that the Bush administration has now spent in Iraq, they had liberated Paris and were racing for the Rhine.


URL Link:
http://www.upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?StoryID=20051206-011834-4315r
=======================

Find this article on web. Thought to share it with you all. This is a perception of an individual to draw a parallel, and does not necessarily an imposition of thought and opinion.

But above all, its high time for the Americans to leave Iraq as soon as possible. Thousands of Iraqi people as well as coalition forces soldiers had already lost their lives. This US (mis)adventure in Iraq seems and proved to be a bleeding wound.

Would be happy to learn as to how the learnered members of the forum take this particular issue.

WAR please put give the LINK/URL to this artical, give name of the SOURCE & also edit your post & separate the paragraphs so it is more easier for every one to read & reply.
 
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KGB

New Member
Regardless if the US was or wasn't right in entering Iraq, it should finish the job it started. Leaving Iraq would leave a huge power vacuum. The terrorists would be free to base there and attack the US and other countries, Iran will extend it's influence over the Shiite area. The Kurdish areas will probably stay the same though. Leaving Iraq unfinished would be a huge blow to US credibility and would seem a very irresponsible act.
 

WAR

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KGB said:
Regardless if the US was or wasn't right in entering Iraq, it should finish the job it started. Leaving Iraq would leave a huge power vacuum. The terrorists would be free to base there and attack the US and other countries, Iran will extend it's influence over the Shiite area. The Kurdish areas will probably stay the same though. Leaving Iraq unfinished would be a huge blow to US credibility and would seem a very irresponsible act.
Your apprehensions would remain, even if US quit Iraq after a decade. Why? Because to overcome the would-be's, you have to kill millions of people, to wipe out the Shiites of Iran and Iraq. And to settle the Kurds.

What I mean to say is that, there is no military solution. You have to tackle the issue at hand by involving all the pockets and reaching a power sharing formulae agreeable to the majority.

You said "Leaving Iraq unfinished would be a huge blow to US credibility and would seem a very irresponsible act." Now does this mean that Americans would settle their on a permanent basis? After all the foreign forces have to leave one day or the other. The sooner the better.

The power vaccum about which you have mentioned, can only be tackled by incorporating the genuine leadership, having roots in the masses.

We are living in a different world. Gone are the days when "the power that be" used to sit on the site and rule. The British government had to leave the sub-continent after ruling for long, thereby paving the way for the birth of India and Pakistan.

So I think leaving Iraq would not in any way blow the US credibility. It would rather ease the tension. Let the people of Iraq be given a fair chance to decide their fate.
 

WAR

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Snayke said:
Leaving Iraq would basically leave it open for invasion by Iran or easily used by terrorists.
Do you really think that after decades of sanctions on Iran by US and allied countries, Iran is in a position to invade any country? Be it Iraq or for that matter Israel or any other country.

There is a strong perception that Iran's military hardware are too old, and the majority of them are out of order owing to non availability of spares etc. No major military purchase took place after Shah Iran.

Secondly, the "threat of terrorists" can only be countered by the localites. A truly elected representative base would provide an effective check on miscreants.
 

KGB

New Member
WAR said:
D
Secondly, the "threat of terrorists" can only be countered by the localites. A truly elected representative base would provide an effective check on miscreants.
That's assuming that the representative base can maintain credibility and maintain its hold on power. The leader of the palestinians, for example is freely elected; yet he has very little control over hamas etc.

The catch-22 is this (if I may paraphrase Time Magazine): The iraqi government may collapse if the US troops leaves. The presence of the US troops fuels the insurgents, who then oblige the US to stay in iraq.
 

WAR

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Bush Promises Victory in Iraq – But for Whom?

The URL is:
http://cc.msnscache.com/cache.aspx?q=2782843295170&lang=en-US&mkt=en-US&FORM=CVRE



Bush Promises Victory in Iraq – But for Whom?
by Eric Margolis


Victory or defeat! So proclaimed President George W. Bush in his TV speech about Iraq last night.

Those who oppose Bush’s continued, $6.5 billion monthly war in Iraq are "defeatists." Withdrawal from Iraq would "damage US credibility around the world," warned the self-proclaimed "war president."

What Bush is really worried about, of course, is his own credibility. He has repeatedly shown he cares nothing about what the rest of the world thinks about the US. Why start now?

It’s too bad George W. Bush evaded regular military service by hiding out in the Texas Air National Guard during war time. If Bush had any real military experience, he and his mentor, Dick Cheney, who was "too busy" to do his military service during Vietnam, might have learned one of the basic laws of military science: only fools and megalomaniacs say "no retreat."

Retreat is as much a part of warfare as advance, and often an even more useful tactic. No general worth his stripes embarks on a battle or campaign without leaving open a secure line of retreat behind him. War is by nature uncertain and filled with nasty surprises.

The hallmark of a good commander is being able to quickly change plans when faced by unexpected adversity and withdraw, trading space for time, when his forces are in peril.

One of history’s greatest modern generals was Erich von Manstein who conducted a brilliant series of fighting withdrawals on the Eastern Front that are a classic of military art.

Two of the most egregious recent examples of the failure to retreat when military/political conditions demand it were Stalingrad and Kuwait. After the German Sixth Army was enveloped by vastly superior Soviet forces at Stalingrad in late 1942, Hitler refused his general’s pleas to break out. He thundered "no retreat" and accused his generals who urged a retreat to the west of "defeatism."

Hitler’s refusal to allow the Sixth Army to break out of encirclement and link up with advancing German forces condemned it to total destruction.

Stalingrad marked the beginning of the end of Hitler’s dream of a thousand-year Reich. Hitler, who was wounded three times in World War I, was a good soldier and understood strategy. He refused to allow his Sixth Army to retreat because he feared it would undermine his authority and aura of invincibility. A dictator cannot afford to lose face by retreating.

Saddam Hussein faced the same problem in Kuwait in 1990–1991. Saddam invaded the US protectorate after its rulers had gravely insulted Iraq by demanding its war widows be sent to Kuwait’s harems in lieu of billions in loans for the Iran-Iraq War that bankrupt Baghdad owed the Kuwaitis.

Facing certain destruction from the US-led coalition, Saddam wanted to withdraw but feared doing so would fatally undermine his authority and lead to a coup. So he sat transfixed, hoping the Soviets would somehow rescue him from the jaws of disaster. In the end, Saddam’s armies in Kuwait were destroyed and Iraq submitted to siege.

Fools and megalomaniacs don’t know when to retreat. Just as the distant oil fields of the Caucasus lured Hitler ever east into the wastes of southern Russia and destruction, so Iraq’s oil treasure continues to mesmerize Bush, Cheney & Co. They clearly do not understand, or will not face the fact, that the US cannot afford to keep spending $6.5 billion a month on Iraq and $1 billion monthly in Afghanistan to prop up the little puppet regimes they have created.

The US Army and Marine Corps are being relentlessly ground down in both theaters, and now face not only a crisis of personnel replacements but the massive deterioration of their equipment, from boots to tanks, which is not being replaced.

Democracies are no good at waging long-term guerilla wars. Vietnam showed this to French and Americans, Angola to South Africans, and Lebanon to Israelis.

A majority of Americans no longer believe all the lies about Iraq being pumped out by the Bush White House. They squirm with embarrassment while watching Condoleezza Rice lie through her teeth to Europeans by claiming the US does not kidnap or torture suspects. And they look with concern at their phones, never sure these days of what anonymous federal agency or military group is bugging their calls.

Bush’s latest untruths – that the recent election in Iraq will defeat the Sunni resistance and lead to lasting democracy – are about as believable as Bill Clinton’s prevarications about his sex life.

Perhaps the most galling and persistent of Bush’s lies is the one he repeated last night: that failure to prove Saddam was a threat to world civilization was due to "wrong intelligence." Not wrong. No way. This column maintained for years Iraq had no strategic weapons and no links with al-Qaida. So did many veteran CIA officers. We looked at the available evidence and drew the only logical conclusion.

It was not "wrong intelligence." War against Iraq was the product of a farrago of lies, distortions and disinformation provided by foreign "allies" and a domestic fifth column eager for the US to destroy Iraq, both eagerly abetted by the mainstream US media. Bush’s claims Iraq was behind 9/11 or about to attack the US with germ weapons released by drones were as lurid and outrageous as Dr. Goebbel’s claims in 1939 that Poland was about to invade Germany. The president who made these ludicrous claims now asks us to believe him about Iraq.

Iraq’s US-engineered elections will more firmly entrench the Iranian-influenced Shia majority in power, marginalize the Sunnis and leave the Kurds virtually independent in all but name, and accelerate the dangerous ethnic division of Iraq.

In spite of the current election, Iraq remains a US colony. Washington controls Iraq’s police, inept sepoy army, and assorted death squads – all of whom serve for money, not out of commitment to the government. The US controls Iraq’s total finances. US firms have been given the right to pump and export Iraq’s oil – 90% of its national income.

The US controls Iraq’s secret police and all communications. American money fuels Iraq’s political parties and almost all of Iraq’s so-called media. Behind every Iraqi minister discreetly stands a group of US "advisors." Not since the Soviets occupied Afghanistan have we seen such a reversion to classical colonialism.

The real poll that counts in Iraq is a recent BBC poll that revealed that 65% of all Iraqis – Shia, Sunnis and Kurds – want the US out of Iraq.

Now, we learn in another stinging irony, that the US Army in Iraq has depleted its reserves of M-16 rifle ammo and is currently buying munitions from Israel. One may imagine the reaction in the Muslim World when it is learned that the US is using Israeli bullets to kill Iraqis.

Speaking of the Soviets, this column has been noting for a long time how much the Bush Administration has come to resemble the Soviet Union of Chairman Leonid Brezhnev. The Taoists say, "you become what you hate."

Look at Bush’s foreign wars "to advance the cause of democracy" (Brezhnev called his aggressions "the Soviet Union’s internationalist duty); the gelding of the US media into Soviet-style sycophants; the expansion of political policing in the old USSR and in the new USA; the exhortations to nationalist flag waving and anti-Islamic racism in both empires.

Bush’s speech last night declaring "defeatism" a major new sin was a final ironic touch. What could be more Soviet or Red Chinese-sounding than this piece of opprobrium.

How long will it be before "defeatism" becomes a federal crime under the sinister Patriot Act?
December 26, 2005


There is a lot of straight talk in this article. Most of it corresponds to truth and reality. The highlighted portion needs attention of the learnered members of this august forum.
 

KGB

New Member
If the US retreats from Iraq, where will it retreat to? Al quaeda wasn't satisfied after Russia left afghanhistan do you think they'l put their guns away if the US leaves Iraq? Doubtlesly they'l look for another country with a muslim population to 'liberate', south east asia perhaps? Lee Kwan Yew, the former leader of Singapore says as much when he said that if the US left iraq, far away Singapore and SE asia will be next.

It seems selfish, but many governments would prefer that the the financial and human cost of containing al qaueda be shouldered by the US, while the civillian suffering be shouldered by the iraqis. "Not in my backyard". Ghastly but probably true.
 

Lulldapull

Banned Member
Greeting,

Personally I didn't think that Bush will abandon Iraq merely since camel jockey regime in Iran has put their Neanderthal influence toward Iraqi Shi'ite or Sunni community as well!:D The logical sense I had was Bush would construct six to 12 bases to keep the Iraqis at check and they could concentrate their gunsight to "liberate" Syria from Assad Jr. and Iran from faggot Mullah regime!:D

However the Mullahs weren't idiot as predicted by some people; they would asked Hizballah to give a nice barrages to Israel even if a JDAM lands in Persian soil!:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 

WAR

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KGB said:
If the US retreats from Iraq, where will it retreat to? Al quaeda wasn't satisfied after Russia left afghanhistan do you think they'l put their guns away if the US leaves Iraq? Doubtlesly they'l look for another country with a muslim population to 'liberate', south east asia perhaps? Lee Kwan Yew, the former leader of Singapore says as much when he said that if the US left iraq, far away Singapore and SE asia will be next.
Pulling troops out of Iraq would not be actually a retreat. The US sponsored government in Iraq is already there. Which means the existence of a high tech intelligence network, dedicated for the "cause".

Secondly, regarding Al Qaida: I suppose the coalition on war on terror have already claimed the destruction of links/ communications network of top Al Qaida stalwarts. In this regard, the statements of President Bush and Donald Rumsfeld are on record. There exists small pockets, which are operating from different locations. In a major operation, Pakistan Army killed hundreds of miscreants in tribal areas of WANA, South and North Waziristan area. A very small number might be there now, which would be wiped out soon.

Thirdly, you think they would look for another country to liberate SE Asia. Well, the proposition for the sake of discussion hold weight. They might assemble somewhere else. But I don't think they would be in a position, presently or in near future to make a major blow. I think there is a threat perception, which is blown out of proportion. People and the leadership of western countries are scared of any would-be incident, like that of 9/11. With so much monitoring, these people would not be able to repeat the past.


KGB said:
It seems selfish, but many governments would prefer that the the financial and human cost of containing al qaueda be shouldered by the US, while the civillian suffering be shouldered by the iraqis. "Not in my backyard". Ghastly but probably true.
Well, at the very outset, everyone wants to be safe and secure. No one would prefer to suffer either in monetary terms or for human loss. But Pakistan has suffered a lot in the name of "securing the world". And we are still suffering. And would continue to suffer in the time to come. And the support (both military and otherwise) by the western world can be called as peanuts. It is due the geographical location in which we exists. At one side we have to deploy thousands of troops along Pak-India border (as peace talks had not been succesfully concluded with India), and on other we have look into hundreds of kilometer of Pak-Afghan border divided by Durand line.
 

WAR

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Lulldapull said:
Greeting,

Personally I didn't think that Bush will abandon Iraq merely since camel jockey regime in Iran has put their Neanderthal influence toward Iraqi Shi'ite or Sunni community as well!:D The logical sense I had was Bush would construct six to 12 bases to keep the Iraqis at check and they could concentrate their gunsight to "liberate" Syria from Assad Jr. and Iran from faggot Mullah regime!:D

However the Mullahs weren't idiot as predicted by some people; they would asked Hizballah to give a nice barrages to Israel even if a JDAM lands in Persian soil!:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Well there may be a possibility of what you think. Apart from the factors mentioned for setting up of bases, a very strong perception behind this would-be decision is to control Iraqi Oil.

Apart from "Liberating" Syria, there is a strong perception of "Liberating" Saudi Arabia in the name of Democracy and Human Rights. Only time would tell the real story.

However, Israel would counter any move from Hizbollah. Their Army and Air Force waste not a single second to attack on the basis of any information they got, regardless of its authenticity. This has resulted killing of hundreds of innocent people.

Surely, Mullah are not idiot. But others are more smart!!!!!
 

WAR

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S.Korea votes to cut its troops in Iraq by a third

URL:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051230/wl_nm/iraq_korea_dc_1


S.Korea votes to cut its troops in Iraq by a third

Fri Dec 30, 2:44 AM ET

South Korea's parliament approved a bill on Friday to cut by about one third the size of its troop deployment in Iraq, the third-largest foreign contingent there.

The unicameral National Assembly voted by 110 to 31 to extend the country's troop deployment in the northern Iraqi region of Arbil by one year until the end of 2006 but cut the contingent to 2,300 from 3,200.

The United States has the largest contingent of foreign troops in Iraq and Britain the second largest.


Good News. I hope others would follow the same, soon.
 

artistoli

New Member
WAR said:
Do you really think that after decades of sanctions on Iran by US and allied countries, Iran is in a position to invade any country? Be it Iraq or for that matter Israel or any other country.

There is a strong perception that Iran's military hardware are too old, and the majority of them are out of order owing to non availability of spares etc. No major military purchase took place after Shah Iran.

Secondly, the "threat of terrorists" can only be countered by the localites. A truly elected representative base would provide an effective check on miscreants.
I think you very much underestimate the military capabilities of Iran. Sure, they have had trouble procuring military hardware from foreign sources, but they have been busy developing their own armaments industry; and they are now producing their own armoured vehicles, helicopters, missiles, and even fighter jets. It has to be said that most are derived from out-dated technology, and some are straight copies of US and Russian equipment, but the point is that Iran is vastly more capable than Iraq was, and it's commanders and military planners have also been watching and learning from the Iraq saga. Also it is wise to remember that Iran has long, porous borders with countries that are strapped for cash; and I'm pretty sure that all kinds of military goods have found their way into Iran from the east, even in recent years.

Your comparisons between the US raising an effective fighting force in WWII and raising the new Iraqi armed forces are also fundamentaly flawed.
1) During WWII the US raised its new forces at home. This time they are trying to do it on the other side of the world.
2) It takes much longer to train and equip a modern army than it did in WWII. Troops only got very basic training before being declared operational in WWII, and equipment such as tanks, vehicles, aircraft, and even ships were much simpler to learn to operate, and were much quicker to build even. Today's Iraqi forces are being supplied with equipment that is being purchased on the world wide market and the tendering and delivery takes longer that it did in WWII when the government simply said 'build this' and it was delivered a few weeks later.
3) The US media is WWII did not spend most of its energy picking at its government and troops and actually gave the overall cause some serious support. One cannot fail to wonder wether the negative press coverage of the war (even if it is more realistic than WWII propaganda) actually encourages the insurgents in Iraq to continue fighting by inflating their achievments, and at the same time destroys the morale of the new Iraqi forces (and so contributing to desertions), and their coalition trainers and advisors.
 

WAR

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US military over- stretched in Iraq, Afghanistan: Reports

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews


US military over- stretched in Iraq, Afghanistan: Reports

(Updated at 1450 PST)
WASHINGTON: The US military has become dangerously overstretched because of the scale of its operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, two reports have warned.

One, by former officials in the Clinton administration, said the pressure of repeated deployments was very corrosive and could have long-term effects.

The second, ordered by the Pentagon and yet to be released, reportedly calls the army "stretched to breaking point".

The US defence secretary dismissed the claims as out of date or misdirected.

About 138,000 US troops remain in Iraq, on top of deployments to Afghanistan and Kosovo.


==============================
The time is running out fast. The US should take seriously the reports compiled by her own organisations.

After all, you cannot stay at Iraq forever. No matter how long US stays, the moment they leave, their sponsored government would collapse in months. The reason is obvious: They lack genuine support of Iraqi citizens.

Secondly, the problem would not be solved by marking the report as out of date or misdirected. It would only be solved by accepting the ground reality in letter and spirit, and acting accordingly.
 

WAR

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artistoli said:
I think you very much underestimate the military capabilities of Iran. Sure, they have had trouble procuring military hardware from foreign sources, but they have been busy developing their own armaments industry; and they are now producing their own armoured vehicles, helicopters, missiles, and even fighter jets. It has to be said that most are derived from out-dated technology, and some are straight copies of US and Russian equipment, but the point is that Iran is vastly more capable than Iraq was, and it's commanders and military planners have also been watching and learning from the Iraq saga. Also it is wise to remember that Iran has long, porous borders with countries that are strapped for cash; and I'm pretty sure that all kinds of military goods have found their way into Iran from the east, even in recent years. .
I doubt whether they have capabilities to make a fighter jet. They may have developed a facility for minor repairs etc. Please correct me by authenticating a source.

Secondly, APCs (Armoured Personal Carriers) are support vehicles, and does not require a very high-tech technology. They can't win a war with old technology or copied old version of heli's etc. BUT surely, I agree that Iran is not Iraq. They would perhaps resist longer.

Thirdly, the procurement of weapons and other material from East. Yes, according to reports, they do have long range ballistic missiles, which may hit upto Israel. And to counter that Israel had deployed Patriot missiles. But 100% efficacy of Patriot is a big question mark.


artistoli said:
Your comparisons between the US raising an effective fighting force in WWII and raising the new Iraqi armed forces are also fundamentaly flawed.
1) During WWII the US raised its new forces at home. This time they are trying to do it on the other side of the world.
2) It takes much longer to train and equip a modern army than it did in WWII. Troops only got very basic training before being declared operational in WWII, and equipment such as tanks, vehicles, aircraft, and even ships were much simpler to learn to operate, and were much quicker to build even. Today's Iraqi forces are being supplied with equipment that is being purchased on the world wide market and the tendering and delivery takes longer that it did in WWII when the government simply said 'build this' and it was delivered a few weeks later.
3) The US media is WWII did not spend most of its energy picking at its government and troops and actually gave the overall cause some serious support. One cannot fail to wonder wether the negative press coverage of the war (even if it is more realistic than WWII propaganda) actually encourages the insurgents in Iraq to continue fighting by inflating their achievments, and at the same time destroys the morale of the new Iraqi forces (and so contributing to desertions), and their coalition trainers and advisors.
Well, raising a force on the other side of the world, is to use them to fulfill the desired goals, which otherwise had to be done by the attacking country. This strategy reduces the casualities of the invaders. The logic is like for example, if a Russian is bruised and killed by a Russian would not have that effect at large (in media and public opinion) in comparison to a Russian being killed by an American.

So raising an Iraqi Army has a strategic reason. It helps considerably in shifting the wrath of the people on others.

Regarding media: Well the power of media in recent times have proved to be more effective than an atomic bomb. Even it is said that media warfare is more important than the actual warfare. One is forced to believe the unbelievable. And it does not stops here. The influenced individual start propagating the same, as it was his/ her own brain child. A lot can be said, but I suppose I have made my point.
 
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