Intrepid stuck in mud

[Sea Toby]

After dredging a channel to the main channel, the Intrepid aircraft carrier was supposed to have been towed to drydock today. Unfortunately, six tugs could not budge her more than 15 feet. Please read this link:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061107/ap_on_re_us/uss_intrepid

As I have noted before, museum ships don't earn their keep. Here is another example of another museum ship dying a slow death. The Intrepid's drydock was expected to cost in the vicinity of US$60 million.

While I appreciate the sincerity of those wishing to save them as museum ships, and I have visited many, all of them in my opinion are dying a slow death. I honestly believe we would be better off rotating newer decomissioned ships to replace the older ones, if museums are to be successful.

Otherwise, we should either sink them as dive wrecks or sell them to the scrappers.

 

[LancerMc]

I am in complete disagreement with you. :mad3 These ships need to be preserved as much as possible. It is important to save our past. If we go by your idea, we should also plow over every historic battlefield to build malls and shopping centers. Or maybe we should scrap old vintage aircraft, and sell the metal to make new airliners? These ships are also a place of great remembrance for veterans. My community has one of the last Landing Ship Tanks in existence. We won a hard fought contest to have it located here. Our city built more of them then any other place during the second world war. It is great to see veterans of WW2, Korea, and Vietnam holding reunions aboard the ship. It is also an important part of our community and lets kids learn about our city's important past. The upkeep on these ships is very high, but communities come to love and support these ships. Now I understand $60 million dollars is a lot, I would think it would be easier to do the repairs at the original dock (Which is their backup plan). So I don't see why they would waste the money to move the Intrepid and just do the repairs at the dock.

How are we supposed to learn from the past, if we destroy all traces of it?
Just remember that

 

[Sea Toby]

Battleship Texas woes

I understand everyone's sincerity. But read about the Battleship Texas woes today. Now the foundation is prepared to put her into a permanent drydock, that is if she will survive the trip to the new drydock.

Millions were spent for her 1988 drydock. Many more millions have to be raised to put her into a drydock forever now. The foundation is no where near their fund raising goal.

Its not just the Texas. If you google the others, their futures don't look bright for the long term either.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/state/15046767.htm?source=rss&channel=dfw_state

And how do you think they will be able to sandblast and repaint the Intrepid underwater hull by the pier? Doing this takes a drydock. Eventually New York will be attempting to raise funds to place her in a permanent drydock too. Unfortunately, at the present time, they cannot budge her 50 feet.

While old small drafted destroyers, landing ships, and submarines can be towed for repairs, old deep drafted battleships and aircraft carriers have been and are another story.

A ship that isn't in the water isn't a ship, its a full scale model.

 

[Stuart Mackey]

snip

A ship that isn't in the water isn't a ship, its a full scale model.

*sigh* I dont think that there is anything wrong with museum ships as a concept, preserving history is important, what upsets me most about these museums that are run by 'enthusiastic volunteer's' is that they, and the public,do not have the faintest idea of what they are letting themselves in for.
The old Texas, and soon enough the Intrepid, need to be isolated as much as possible from the natural environment if they are to be properly preserved {iron and steel rust} and this costs enourmous amounts of money, if you dont do that, you end up paying more in the long run to do a proper job of it, in fact the same amounts of money as if they were still in the navy. Left as they are, what little money that is spent on them is a complete waste as it its not actually going to preserve the ship, which is the entire point. These outfits are well meaning, but they often display an apalling ignorance of what real museum work is about.

 

[contedicavour]

To add to the remarks above, in France they are losing their only major museum ship, the cruiser Colbert in Bordeaux. The ship is full of asbestos and the city of Bordeaux wants it towed away for the cleanup. Beyond asbestos the ship is rusting away and it offers a sad picture in front of classy 17th century buildings along the river.
Since nobody wants to pay for asbestos cleanup, the risk is that the ship will end up in some ship cemetery in some faraway country willing to take it.



In Italy we're trying to preserve the Vittorio Veneto missile cruiser but it's an uphill struggle.

 

[Wooki]

You do need museum ships, but I guess the real question of this thread is how do you go about doing it?

Keeping them in seawater is not an option if you wish to preserve the vessel. I would go the Japanese hotel ship route where they lift the vessel on concrete. In fact, there is nothing stopping you from settling the entire ship in concrete. Its relatively cheap to do and acts like a permanent dry dock. If you want to move it make the concrete "skirt" modular.

The other thing you could do is move the boat to fresh water (great lakes for example) or skirt here again and flood the water she is floating in with FW.

Then you must invest in sacrificial anodes to protect teh entire vessel. That in unto itself stops further degradation from rust immediately.

cheers

W

 

[Big-E]

You do need museum ships, but I guess the real question of this thread is how do you go about doing it?

Keeping them in seawater is not an option if you wish to preserve the vessel. I would go the Japanese hotel ship route where they lift the vessel on concrete. In fact, there is nothing stopping you from settling the entire ship in concrete. Its relatively cheap to do and acts like a permanent dry dock. If you want to move it make the concrete "skirt" modular.

The other thing you could do is move the boat to fresh water (great lakes for example) or skirt here again and flood the water she is floating in with FW.

Then you must invest in sacrificial anodes to protect teh entire vessel. That in unto itself stops further degradation from rust immediately.

cheers

W

There are more factors than just the hull sitting in salt water for a century. I have participated in restoration of the USS Yorktown here in SC and the biggest problems are inside the hull and above the waterline. The most important factor is keeping the guests safe. Structural integrity of bulk heads, walkways and partitions are the most important efforts to any restoration and there comes a point where it is just not feasable to do so. Our fundraising efforts to restore the carrier Yorktown have fallen short and rates had to be raised at Patriots Point to cover it. Much discussion has been made of discarding the ship in 15-20 years and it has nothing to do with preserving the hull. It is thick enough to sit in its bearth for another 50-60 years without fear of leakage, a BB would last even longer.

I imagine muesem ships like USS Missouri will get the love and attention to last hundreds of years but ships with less luster like Intrepid will be scrapped once they can no longer draw a profit from the crowds that see her. It takes alot of money to restore BBs and CVs and after a certain amount of time it becomes almost impossible to raise without federal assitance. Unless your ship is beloved nation wide you can kiss it good-bye because it's going to the scrapp yard without funds to keep her safe for tourists.

 

[Wooki]

There are more factors than just the hull sitting in salt water for a century. I have participated in restoration of the USS Yorktown here in SC and the biggest problems are inside the hull and above the waterline. The most important factor is keeping the guests safe. Structural integrity of bulk heads, walkways and partitions are the most important efforts to any restoration and there comes a point where it is just not feasable to do so. Our fundraising efforts to restore the carrier Yorktown have fallen short and rates had to be raised at Patriots Point to cover it. Much discussion has been made of discarding the ship in 15-20 years and it has nothing to do with preserving the hull. It is thick enough to sit in its bearth for another 50-60 years without fear of leakage, a BB would last even longer.

I imagine muesem ships like USS Missouri will get the love and attention to last hundreds of years but ships with less luster like Intrepid will be scrapped once they can no longer draw a profit from the crowds that see her. It takes alot of money to restore BBs and CVs and after a certain amount of time it becomes almost impossible to raise without federal assitance. Unless your ship is beloved nation wide you can kiss it good-bye because it's going to the scrapp yard without funds to keep her safe for tourists.

Yeh, that is a given. Worked on converting a freighter into a training platform and we just sank her at the berth. Once you ensure the hull integrity its a matter of treating it like a very expensive building with all the items you list and more E.

Because we had the luxury of using our v/l for training we stripped down every component and rebuilt it every 3 months or so. It surprises me that the USN don't do that with "museum" ships as the engineering skills are still relevant.

Applied principles stuff like "take apart the drive shaft and place it 2 meters that way". Four hours later the job is done and you say "now put it back together again".

Its an extremely complicated operation to do and it doesn't matter whether its a dreadnaught or the USS Ronald Reagan, the same principles apply.

cheers

W

 

[radiosilence]

Article and short video of USS Intrepid being moved to a dry dock in New Jersey.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16052317/

"If she doesn't move, we are going to jump in and push her," a former crew member, 84-year-old Joe Kobert, said on the Intrepid's deck before the behemoth began to move on Tuesday.

 

[Tasman]

There are more factors than just the hull sitting in salt water for a century. I have participated in restoration of the USS Yorktown here in SC and the biggest problems are inside the hull and above the waterline. The most important factor is keeping the guests safe. Structural integrity of bulk heads, walkways and partitions are the most important efforts to any restoration and there comes a point where it is just not feasable to do so. Our fundraising efforts to restore the carrier Yorktown have fallen short and rates had to be raised at Patriots Point to cover it. Much discussion has been made of discarding the ship in 15-20 years and it has nothing to do with preserving the hull. It is thick enough to sit in its bearth for another 50-60 years without fear of leakage, a BB would last even longer.

I imagine muesem ships like USS Missouri will get the love and attention to last hundreds of years but ships with less luster like Intrepid will be scrapped once they can no longer draw a profit from the crowds that see her. It takes alot of money to restore BBs and CVs and after a certain amount of time it becomes almost impossible to raise without federal assitance. Unless your ship is beloved nation wide you can kiss it good-bye because it's going to the scrapp yard without funds to keep her safe for tourists.

I hadn't realized just how expensive it is to maintain a museum ship. Having enjoyed an exploration of USS Intrepid whilst visiting New York in 2005 I would love to see her continue in its present role. Ships like these are wonderful for PR and I am sure they raise awareness of defence issues. But I accept that there must come a point where the cost is just too great.

Hopefully the present refit (now she is freed from the mud) will at least give her another 15-20 years.

Cheers

 

[Big-E]

I hadn't realized just how expensive it is to maintain a museum ship. Having enjoyed an exploration of USS Intrepid whilst visiting New York in 2005 I would love to see her continue in its present role. Ships like these are wonderful for PR and I am sure they raise awareness of defence issues. But I accept that there must come a point where the cost is just too great.

Hopefully the present refit (now she is freed from the mud) will at least give her another 15-20 years.

Cheers

It's not like the US only built carriers for WWII unlike the BBs. We have a constant revolving door of (active,reserve,museum,scrap) supply CVs, soon to be CVNs. We don't need 4 of each time period on museum lists. It kind of losses the novelty if every port city has a docked carrier. The way I see it only the most notable should be retained and the others after a decent museum life should be made available for scrap/target practice. They can be replaced with newer decommed ships that have been stricken from the register. I hope that when Enterprise is decommed she will go straight to the museum rather than mothballed. She needs to be stricken from the register so her namesake can take her place in the fleet.

 

[wittmanace]

big e, d you know why retired carriers arent sold? britain, for example could buy a couple instead of the new ones shes building. i imagine that might come up when it becomes more a public issue (in the press more and more widely known), with the cost a major concern judging by recent uk trneds. presumably the royal navy could make use of them with upgrades, in the same roles as projected for the new carriers? is there a good reason why this doesnt happen? i assumed youd be the person to ask about this...

 

[Big-E]

big e, d you know why retired carriers arent sold? britain, for example

Age... US carrier age to decom is around 50 years. The RN doesn't want the headaches and maintenance costs that go with these giants. They also want to maintain the abilty to build it themselves. Building a CV is a nice pork barrel project to have. Not to mention it doesn't fit her force projection requirements.

 

[Tasman]

It's not like the US only built carriers for WWII unlike the BBs. We have a constant revolving door of (active,reserve,museum,scrap) supply CVs, soon to be CVNs. We don't need 4 of each time period on museum lists. It kind of losses the novelty if every port city has a docked carrier. The way I see it only the most notable should be retained and the others after a decent museum life should be made available for scrap/target practice. They can be replaced with newer decommed ships that have been stricken from the register. I hope that when Enterprise is decommed she will go straight to the museum rather than mothballed. She needs to be stricken from the register so her namesake can take her place in the fleet.

Good point. This would be the logical way to go. Preservation of USS Enterprise as a museum ship would be particularly significant given its history as the world's first CVN. I still remember its visit to Hobart in the late 1970s. Anchored close to the city it was the most impressive vessel I ever saw. Unfortunately visiting CVNs are now required to anchor well away from the city, which reduces their visual impact.

 

[Big-E]

Good point. This would be the logical way to go. Preservation of USS Enterprise as a museum ship would be particularly significant given its history as the world's first CVN. I still remember its visit to Hobart in the late 1970s. Anchored close to the city it was the most impressive vessel I ever saw. Unfortunately visiting CVNs are now required to anchor well away from the city, which reduces their visual impact.

I have a particular interest as having served on her for two deployments. The Big-E association is trying to secure pledges for her transition to a museum. We are also lobbying for one of the future CV(X)s to be named after her. We need to preserve the legacy but also need to carry it on. It sure would be nice if the lead ship of CV(X) was called Enterprise.

 

[Tasman]

I have a particular interest as having served on her for two deployments. The Big-E association is trying to secure pledges for her transition to a museum. We are also lobbying for one of the future CV(X)s to be named after her. We need to preserve the legacy but also need to carry it on. It sure would be nice if the lead ship of CV(X) was called Enterprise.

Let's hope so. The name Enterprise is strongly linked with carrier history (the current CVN65 and CV9 of WW2 fame). It would be highly appropriate to have an Enterprise class of new carriers!

 

[radiosilence]

Famed USS Intrepid to get a shot of 'boatox'

The war veteran turned floating military museum was to be placed Tuesday in dry dock, where it will be perched on 212 custom-made pine blocks while crews scrape and power-wash its salt and weather corroded keel, then paint it the traditional battleship gray.

link


Work has started on this baby. Can't wait to see her back on the West side.

 

[Manfred]

The Warrior and the Huascar are still around. If two ironclads from the 1860s are still around, then preserving WW2 ships should not be such a problem.

Redundancy is a good point. Patriots Point looks a little redundant, with the North Carolina just up the road, and Mobile Alabama with it's own collection. I think a national foundation should be set up, and priority should be given according to age, uniquiness and potential for long life.

I would assighn priorities as follows;
1) USS Constitution

2) USS Olympia in Philadelphia, the only veteran of the Spanish American War.

3) USS Texas. If it has been allowed to slip too far, then so be it. However, this is the only WW1 Battleship left in the world.

4) USS Missouri. It is incredible that the place where WW2 ended is parked in the same place that it began for the USA.

America has 8 battleships. Nobody else has any left in any condition, aside from the Mikasa in Japan (the only pre-dreadnought remaining). Maybe the BBs can be trimed down to just 5, to make them more of a "draw"?

 

[Rich]

One of my dreams is to travel the world going to museums, ship museums, battle fields...ect I really want to see the MO plus the German type XXI Ive seen pictures of.

 

[Tasman]

One of my dreams is to travel the world going to museums, ship museums, battle fields...ect I really want to see the MO plus the German type XXI Ive seen pictures of.

I know what you mean Rich.

One of my greatest joys since retiring from full time work has been to do just that. Intrepid, before its present 'adventure', was one of the ships I enjoyed spending time on during a visit to New York in June, 2005. Others included Belfast in London and Vampire in Sydney. I was also lucky enough to get on board Missouri during a visit to Hobart whilst it was on its last active commission. Those 16" guns are awe inspiring. Of the battlefields I visited, the place I enjoyed most was the city of Ypres in Flanders, Belgium.

Cheers