Indonesia turns to Russia for new fighters and helo's

[Lewinski]

Hi all,

Apparently Indonesia is close to signing for 8 Sukhoi Su-30MK fighter and 4 Mil Mi-35 attack helos. Also included in the deal are 5 cargo helo's and 2 submarines (presumably Mil-17s and Kilo class subs respectively)

link here:
http://www.flightglobal.com/Article...+Russia+for+new+fighters+and+helicopters.html

cheers

 

[rizallyn0301]

after president SBY visit to russia, indonesia will buy 3 Su-27SKM and 3 Su-30MK2 ... and indonesia doesn't have any SU-27SKM before. we have only 2 Su-27SK and Su-30MK without any armaments.
from indonesian newspaper Kompas.com, TNI will acquire 10 Mi-17-V5, 5 Mi-35P, 2 Kilo Class project 636, 20 BMP-3F, yakhont missiles, 3 Su-27SKM and 3 Su-30MK2, included armaments package...........

 

[SATAN]

after president SBY visit to russia, indonesia will buy 3 Su-27SKM and 3 Su-30MK2 ... and indonesia doesn't have any SU-27SKM before. we have only 2 Su-27SK and Su-30MK without any armaments.
from indonesian newspaper Kompas.com, TNI will acquire 10 Mi-17-V5, 5 Mi-35P, 2 Kilo Class project 636, 20 BMP-3F, yakhont missiles, 3 Su-27SKM and 3 Su-30MK2, included armaments package...........

Good news for Indonesia i guess, they need to modernize their Military in a big way. Its neighbours are armed to the Teeth!

 

[Waylander]

You're thinking about Australia, Malaysia and Singapore?

 

[Aussie Digger]

Good news for Indonesia i guess, they need to modernize their Military in a big way. Its neighbours are armed to the Teeth!

No, they need to spend their money on capabilities which are of some benefit. What are submarines, Yakhont missiles and SU-30 fighters going to do for Indonesia?

Who has ANY intention of attacking Indonesia? All it's neighbours are more afraid of it, than the reverse, from what I can see.

Indonesia cannot protect it's own citizens from, nor support it's own relief capacity in the face of numerous natural disasters, yet can afford these "high end" warfighting capabilities.

The money would be far better spent on maritime patrol, airlift and military engineering/medical and rescue capability than these useless combat capabilities. I say they are useless because they do not have, nor appear to have the intention of developing the doctrine, structures and support assets necessary to truly use these assets in combat.

They do not seem to understand that professional mastery of military operations, stems not from mere possession of "shiny" platforms but from a thorough grounding in military knowledge, (ie: through properly educating it's soldiers/officers) highly quality and focussed training , excellent logistical support and FINALLY quality military platforms.

Like many Governments around the world, the Indonesians seem to suffer from an "appearances at all cost" syndrome. The thinking being that if "we don't have visible high-end military capabilities our enemies will attack us" or that we "cannot go on pretending we are a world power"...

They seem not realise, or at least care that other professional militaries are all too aware of what it REALLY takes to build a professional and capable military force and all the "window dressing" in the world won't change that...

They seem very impressed with Russia's level of support too.

Tell me. How good is Russia at supporting the 4 SU-27/30 fighters, Indonesia already has, (which it STILL can't afford to arm) and were I last heard, grounded due to a lack of funding for spares???

 

[SATAN]

You're thinking about Australia, Malaysia and Singapore?

Yeah, Collins ,Scorpene and Gotland class SSKs. Not to mention the USNavy is going to reopen the Subic Bay naval base in the Phillipines.

 

[SATAN]

No, they need to spend their money on capabilities which are of some benefit. What are submarines, Yakhont missiles and SU-30 fighters going to do for Indonesia?

Who has ANY intention of attacking Indonesia? All it's neighbours are more afraid of it, than the reverse, from what I can see.

Indonesia cannot protect it's own citizens from, nor support it's own relief capacity in the face of numerous natural disasters, yet can afford these "high end" warfighting capabilities.

The money would be far better spent on maritime patrol, airlift and military engineering/medical and rescue capability than these useless combat capabilities. I say they are useless because they do not have, nor appear to have the intention of developing the doctrine, structures and support assets necessary to truly use these assets in combat.

They do not seem to understand that professional mastery of military operations, stems not from mere possession of "shiny" platforms but from a thorough grounding in military knowledge, (ie: through properly educating it's soldiers/officers) highly quality and focussed training , excellent logistical support and FINALLY quality military platforms.

Like many Governments around the world, the Indonesians seem to suffer from an "appearances at all cost" syndrome. The thinking being that if "we don't have visible high-end military capabilities our enemies will attack us" or that we "cannot go on pretending we are a world power"...

They seem not realise, or at least care that other professional militaries are all too aware of what it REALLY takes to build a professional and capable military force and all the "window dressing" in the world won't change that...

They seem very impressed with Russia's level of support too.

Tell me. How good is Russia at supporting the 4 SU-27/30 fighters, Indonesia already has, (which it STILL can't afford to arm) and were I last heard, grounded due to a lack of funding for spares???

You put out some good points out there. But Indonesia feels it has to mantain something resembling a military...after all it is a huge country and as the largest Islamic country in the world...feels a little threatened by a militaristic Australia barking at its neighbours . But even so..it is no match for a tiny city state like Singapore let alone a very powerful Australia which is second to none in that region.

Now the only reason Indonesia is buying russian stuff is because its economy is weak, its a poor country and can afford whatever is the cheapest and wont get embargoed and put under sanctions. So while the Aussies see Indonesians as "Monkeys and cannibals" and the rest of ASEAN sees Aussies as "genetically inferior uncivilized descendents of convicts and the filth of Europe" there is zero chance of an arms race between Indonesia and some of its neighbours.

 

[Aussie Digger]

You put out some good points out there. But Indonesia feels it has to mantain something resembling a military...after all it is a huge country and as the largest Islamic country in the world...feels a little threatened by a militaristic Australia barking at its neighbours . But even so..it is no match for a tiny city state like Singapore let alone a very powerful Australia which is second to none in that region.

Now the only reason Indonesia is buying russian stuff is because its economy is weak, its a poor country and can afford whatever is the cheapest and wont get embargoed and put under sanctions. So while the Aussies see Indonesians as "Monkeys and cannibals" and the rest of ASEAN sees Aussies as "genetically inferior uncivilized descendents of convicts and the filth of Europe" there is zero chance of an arms race between Indonesia and some of its neighbours.

Really would you care to provide some sources on how Aussies think of Indonesians and how Indonesians think of Australians or should we take your word simply because you've said it???

Could you also explain exactly what Australia has done to show itself to be militaristic?

If that were the case, do you honestly think we would have sought Indonesia's PERMISSION before we "liberated" East Timor?

 

[SATAN]

Really would you care to provide some sources on how Aussies think of Indonesians and how Indonesians think of Australians or should we take your word simply because you've said it???

Could you also explain exactly what Australia has done to show itself to be militaristic?
If that were the case, do you honestly think we would have sort Indonesia's PERMISSION before we "liberated" East Timor?

Sure, i'll try to find some links. I was talking about the recent bouts of name calling between the Indos and the Aussies regarding the convictions of drug smuggling women into Bali and the sort. Also, there are numerous cases of blatant australian racism and disregard for Human Rights..if you google it, im sure you'll get a ton of stuff. Also the mass genocide of the native aboriginals and the local animal species. A lot of it has to do with the increasingly militaristic and crass Howard and his Utterances that annoy the Asian comity of nations .


I personally LOVE Sydney Canberra and Melbourne, its a beautiful country and fun to party in oh yeah and i love Outback SteakHouse Im going to vacation in Sydney in jan 2007.

 

[rizallyn0301]

No, they need to spend their money on capabilities which are of some benefit. What are submarines, Yakhont missiles and SU-30 fighters going to do for Indonesia?

do you think that TNI must retain their obsolete war machines rather than acquire new ones? every year, in average, 2 western built fighter planes lack of spare parts had accident sometimes claiming their pilots... US said that they had lifted embargo for indonesia, but till now, TNI still can't buy the spareparts, even only for C-130 hercules

Tell me. How good is Russia at supporting the 4 SU-27/30 fighters, Indonesia already has, (which it STILL can't afford to arm) and were I last heard, grounded due to a lack of funding for spares???

last week i was invited to hasanuddin airbase, and shown 4 Sukhois were flown together in a formation... yeah, of course without any armaments, they're no more than 'big targets'...

 

[Big-E]

Also, there are numerous cases of blatant australian racism and disregard for Human Rights..if you google it, im sure you'll get a ton of stuff. Also the mass genocide of the native aboriginals and the local animal species. A lot of it has to do with the increasingly militaristic and crass Howard and his Utterances that annoy the Asian comity of nations .

Is there a reason your still hanging around? These racist insinuations are getting old. GF already told you anti-Sematism is not allowed and attacking Australia isn't going to win you any brownie points around here.

BTW no nation is more ecolgically aware than Australia... NO ONE!

AD and I are in perfect agreement on Indonesia. The Tsunami and even more recent earthquake disaster on Java only illustrates the total lack of prepardeness of TNI for humanitarian needs. Indonesia has to realize she is an island nation at the heart of imminent disaster and amphib and cargo air assets are a must for the welfare of it's citizens. When you live in the most volcanic and earthquake prone area on earth it should be a forgone conclusion where your priorities lie. No one is placing blame for the deaths on Sumatra on the government but the thousands that died afterwards are. Hundreds died on Java as well that need not have. There needs to be a new thinking in TNI and what the priorities of the nations forces needs to be. Their greatest enemy is not any nation, it is mother nature herself.

 

[webmaster]

Satan, Australia is not the issue/topic here nor is the socio-political differences of the region. Its absurd to think or to pass notions that Indonesia is acquiring weapons because of Australian "racism" against Indonesians, thats ridiculous.

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion but not an off-topic absurdity. Please look for other ideas and reasons to justify Indonesian acquisitions rather than racism card. I am sure, there are few greater strategic security and military reasons why countries acquire weapons. I would really appreciate if we can move away from extremely politicising a perfectly good security/defence related thread.

If you do like discussing topic that relate to socio-political issues around the world, I suggest you start here:
http://www.worldaffairstalk.com/forums/

No explaination or discussions needed on this, please continue with the topic at hand.

Thank you.

 

[icelord]

I'm a little stunned yet again by Indos purchases, i thought they would have enough trouble with their new Subs and getting parts for that, let alone more fighters and Helos, as much as they need the Helos, i just don't know what they are up to. Their dollar is going strong, so it may be a sort of economically based decision, a bit of confidence in the economy means more money gets put into the Defence Budget along with some shiny new planes, the ones that go ping none the less.

 

[Aussie Digger]

do you think that TNI must retain their obsolete war machines rather than acquire new ones? every year, in average, 2 western built fighter planes lack of spare parts had accident sometimes claiming their pilots... US said that they had lifted embargo for indonesia, but till now, TNI still can't buy the spareparts, even only for C-130 hercules



last week i was invited to hasanuddin airbase, and shown 4 Sukhois were flown together in a formation... yeah, of course without any armaments, they're no more than 'big targets'...

That's interesting, it was reported a little while back that Indonesia's SU-27/30's were grounded. Obviously that's been rectified.

The US has announced a number of times it is prepared to sell parts to Indonesia for it's C-130's. It is not prepared to "gift" them however. A lack of cash is preventing Indonesia from making it's C-130's operational and THIS is the problem I have with these purchases.

I have no problem with Indonesia purchasing "war machines". It is EVERY Country's sovereign right to do so. What I have a problem with is misguided defence acquisitions based on the ego's of the General's in charge.

The ability to support it's own people in times of crisis is a much more pressing issue in my opinion, given the recent calamities that have occured. If Indonesia had been acquiring only helo's, airlift capacity and patrol/amphibious capabilities from Russia, then I would be in favour of this purchase, but they are not.

They are buying submarines, Yakhont missiles and fighter jets, most of which will not provide a high level of capability, because they cannot afford to train on them, properly support them, use them jointly with existing forces and finally develop "mastery" of the capability...

 

[Francis]

So is the Russian Federation exporting the soon to come Prospective Air Complex for Tactical Air Forces or Pakfa to the Republic of India?

 

[Francis]

Sorry I meant Indonesia not India my mistake

 

[SATAN]

Also...Indonesia is going to ink a substantial Nuclear agreement with South Korea tommorow in which it will help Indonesia set up its first Nuclear Reactor.This new development seems to be in line with its plans to increase its defense related mechanisms regarding both conventional and non conventional weaponry. It is no secret that Indonesia wants to develop the entire cycle of Nuclear technologies and Uranium enrichment /Nuclear fuel.

 

[SATAN]

That's interesting, it was reported a little while back that Indonesia's SU-27/30's were grounded. Obviously that's been rectified.

The US has announced a number of times it is prepared to sell parts to Indonesia for it's C-130's. It is not prepared to "gift" them however. A lack of cash is preventing Indonesia from making it's C-130's operational and THIS is the problem I have with these purchases.
..

I think the US is already supplying parts for the C-130s that remained grounded for lack of spare parts due to the embargo for much of the 90's.The C-130s were sorely needed in the relief effort in the aftermath of the Tsunami. The Pentagon has already announced its plan to substantially upgrade its military relationship with Indonesia so expect to see some major developments in the coming months. This i believe is in the interest of both countries as Indonesia has a huge moslem population and Indonesia's help is needed in the "Global War on Terror" headed by Bush Jr.

 

[Francis]

Which country exports the most military equipment to Indonesia?

Probably Russia. Though they quite a mix of platforms and equipment from right around the world.

They keep hassling Australia to give them our obsolete Fremantle Class Patrol boats. This would actually be a backward step in the relationship because they are completely shagged and Indonesia would end up with yet another useless and "grounded" military capability if they did. In actual fact, 4 of them are already being cut up for scrap. Not sure about the rest, but they are really not worth the effort in my opinion. Surely similar new-builds can't be too expensive...

I wonder if Australia might sell Indonesia our UH-1H helo's which will be retired only because the US is withdrawing support for the UH-1H model and we are consolidating on MRH-90?

Put our current fleet of 25 through the Huey II upgrade and it'd be a nice little fleet for Indonesia and cheaper to operate than Mil-17's...

 

[caksz]

Now the only reason Indonesia is buying russian stuff is because its economy is weak, its a poor country and can afford whatever is the cheapest and wont get embargoed and put under sanctions.

probably not , most of it's equipment before is us stuff ... because of the embargo they are lacking stuff & spare part ... it's much safer to buy stuff from a different sources

I think the US is already supplying parts for the C-130s that remained grounded for lack of spare parts due to the embargo for much of the 90's.The C-130s were sorely needed in the relief effort in the aftermath of the Tsunami. The Pentagon has already announced its plan to substantially upgrade its military relationship with Indonesia so expect to see some major developments in the coming months. This i believe is in the interest of both countries as Indonesia has a huge moslem population and Indonesia's help is needed in the "Global War on Terror" headed by Bush Jr .

yes , on the recent military excersice with Malaysia they could deploy 10 C-130 for paradrops + they made their own CN-235. A question though ... did indo build super puma ? just curious