Indian ground based radar coverage & anti aircraft systems

[dragonfire]

A recent CAG report pointed out to glaring holes in the radar coverage of India. The report pointed out to the use of insufficent availabilty of radar cover and also pointed to the antiquated technologies being used. Infact recently to bring additional cover to south india, the IAF has linked up with the Civil aviation dep's radar cover to have a better coverage. This points out to the need of new ground based radar systems, mobile radar systems (again insufficent nos available and operational), new technologies as well as the need for better antii aircraft systems. Mods, senior members, defence pros, pls suggest on the same

 

[Todjaeger]

A recent CAG report pointed out to glaring holes in the radar coverage of India. The report pointed out to the use of insufficent availabilty of radar cover and also pointed to the antiquated technologies being used. Infact recently to bring additional cover to south india, the IAF has linked up with the Civil aviation dep's radar cover to have a better coverage. This points out to the need of new ground based radar systems, mobile radar systems (again insufficent nos available and operational), new technologies as well as the need for better antii aircraft systems. Mods, senior members, defence pros, pls suggest on the same

The first thing which comes to mind is, which system do you wish to discuss? Or, are wondering about what systems or capabilities India needs to have in order to have an IADS?

Much of the initial portion of the post seems to India's SA (situational awareness) of Indian airspace, and concerns that the military systems are inadequate or obsolete/obsolescent... My take on that as far as India is concerned is that the situation IMV is not too different in the US either. The 9/11 Commission report IIRC mentions concerns about the ability of the US military to locate and track aircraft within US airspace.

If that is a significant concern for India, then the question would need to be asked, is India trying to make sure that it can detect aircraft which are entering into Indian airspace? OTOH is the concern more about the Indian military being able to locate and track aircraft which are already within Indian airspace?

My personal feeling is that India could likely do with investing in more AEW aircraft, as these typically provide greater detection ranges and are less effected by intervening terrain compared with ground-based radar sites.

-Cheers

 

[Feanor]

Much of the initial portion of the post seems to India's SA (situational awareness) of Indian airspace, and concerns that the military systems are inadequate or obsolete/obsolescent... My take on that as far as India is concerned is that the situation IMV is not too different in the US either. The 9/11 Commission report IIRC mentions concerns about the ability of the US military to locate and track aircraft within US airspace.

Interestingly enough the Russian MoD claims that a Blackjack penetrated US airspace during the West-99 exercises. I recall reading that an investigation followed, but nothing more. How likely is that?

If that is a significant concern for India, then the question would need to be asked, is India trying to make sure that it can detect aircraft which are entering into Indian airspace? OTOH is the concern more about the Indian military being able to locate and track aircraft which are already within Indian airspace?

Both, I would imagine.

My personal feeling is that India could likely do with investing in more AEW aircraft, as these typically provide greater detection ranges and are less effected by intervening terrain compared with ground-based radar sites.

I think a combo is necessary. AEW for search and tracking radars, but for IADS targetting supplement with local SAM radars.

 

[Todjaeger]

IMO the first question would India would need to decide the answer on, is what sort of system is going to be the primary means of air defence?

Once that question is answered, then various platforms required to create an IADS can be determined.

In my personal opinion, if the choice is between and airborne response, or a GBAD system, the airborne option is the better of the two. Air intercepts allow for a faster response over a large area, as well as things like visual confirmation and/or the ability to be re-rolled for CAS and strike missions as needed. GBAD system are limited in their mobility (for all practical purposes, they need an attacking aircraft to close with them to engage) and can encounter sensor limitations based upon surrounding terrain. This in turn could require a very large number of systems, as well as a very well setup IADS to provide coverage of all areas and at the same time, ensure that accidental engagement of blue forces does not occur.

-Cheers

 

[dragonfire]

IMO the first question would India would need to decide the answer on, is what sort of system is going to be the primary means of air defence?

Once that question is answered, then various platforms required to create an IADS can be determined.

In my personal opinion, if the choice is between and airborne response, or a GBAD system, the airborne option is the better of the two. Air intercepts allow for a faster response over a large area, as well as things like visual confirmation and/or the ability to be re-rolled for CAS and strike missions as needed. GBAD system are limited in their mobility (for all practical purposes, they need an attacking aircraft to close with them to engage) and can encounter sensor limitations based upon surrounding terrain. This in turn could require a very large number of systems, as well as a very well setup IADS to provide coverage of all areas and at the same time, ensure that accidental engagement of blue forces does not occur.

-Cheers

In my opinion (from a non-def person) the air defense India should have is an IADS involving comprehensive and complete ground based radar (millitary radar and not civilian or dual usage) and anti aircraft SAM batteries and other ground to air assets, along with fast response long range supersonic interceptors (how about Mig-31 - is it of any use as an interceptor or only a recce platform) armed with BVR air to air missiles as well AEW assets as well as marine reconissance aircraft.

India is buying the P-81s and the Phalcon AWACS but i am not sure if the numbers are sufficent wrt the needs (8 and 3 respectively are the ordered nos of aircraft) apart from which India also operates IL-38s(5 nos being upgraded to IL-38 SD, am not sure its an AEW plus bomber platform or only a marine bomber)

Apart from which India had ordered the Pine Green Ground based weapons locating radar tht and mobile radar units should be aavailable in more nos apart from which there should be more satelities and UAV. also some hand launched UAVs apart from the big ones to be integrated into spec ops - infantory forces

I am not sure about anti-aircraft guns though - does it have any impact in todays scenario of precision guided bombs/ munitions being dropped from faster aircraft which fly higher than earlier crafts

To be specific i think my request is for a suggestion for the model for air defense fo India, we can talk strategy, kinds of radar and probably nos, kind of SAM units, UAV, AEW and marine recon assets and the required nos also interceptors

 

[Feanor]

AAA is still necessary to provide point-air cover of theater-SAM sites. They provide cover against HARMs, and even cruise missiles.

 

[dragonfire]

AAA is still necessary to provide point-air cover of theater-SAM sites. They provide cover against HARMs, and even cruise missiles.

How does AAA work against a HARM, just like machine guns were used against torpedoes launched against ships in WWII , fire and pray you hit it, sounds very unsophiticated, unless there were specific anti-HARM artillery, could you give any examples, for HARM or Cruise missiles being downed by AAA fire

 

[Feanor]

Tunguskas and Pantsyrs can received datalinked targetting info from the IADS, and have their own search, track and targetting radars. They are not unguided AAA.

 

[dragonfire]

Tunguskas and Pantsyrs can received datalinked targetting info from the IADS, and have their own search, track and targetting radars. They are not unguided AAA.

Good tht India has the Tunguska and i think read somehwere tht Pantsir's were ordered from russia and loara's from poland as well, would like your inputs on radar systems though

 

[dragonfire]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vab2TdK_nc8&feature=fvsr]YouTube - India's Multi-layered Air Defence -Tunguska- Part 3 (India has around 100 Tunguskas)[/ame]

The Tunguska-M on youtube - good video, the night firing looks very sexy

 

[kay_man]

Good tht India has the Tunguska and i think read somehwere tht Pantsir's were ordered from russia and loara's from poland as well, would like your inputs on radar systems though

those were only rumours. nothing further has been done on that.
any does any one know about the deployment of the Samyukta radar and jammer, or have they even been deployed?

 

[dragonfire]

those were only rumours. nothing further has been done on that.
any does any one know about the deployment of the Samyukta radar and jammer, or have they even been deployed?

The Samyukta Electronic Warfare System was inducted in 2004 when 26 vehicles were handed over to the Army after which i am assuming the rest of the intended 145 has got delivered.