IFV questions

[ROCK45]

Greece is buying 415 Russian BMP-3 Infantry Fighting Vehicles for $4 million each. These are apparently the BMP-3M model, which has been upgraded with a new turret and engines. The electronics include an automatic fire control system, a gunner's sight with a thermal imager and laser illuminator. The commander's periscope has a laser infrared illuminator. There is a new ammunition loading system. The 100mm gun fires laser-guided projectiles, high explosive/fragmentation rounds, 30mm APSDS (Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot) rounds and two other ammo types.

Full story
http://xpatathens.com/news/17231

I have some general questions to ask about the BMP-3 and this weapons purchase. To begin with I didn’t know that the BMP-3 is lighter and smaller then the US made Bradley. I always thought the two was in the size weight and size class which leads to my next question. I don’t know prices on these types of vehicles but if Greece were to buy western types IFV what would have been some of there options for the same amount of money spent? I think the above deal is a package deal involving anti-aircraft systems and anti-tank missiles which may affect the price so rough prices are fine. Are these the main countries that produce IFV?
USA
Russia
Germany
England
France
South Korea (new player more or less)
Does Brazil make a modern IFV?

Am I right to assume since the BMP-3 is lighter that in combat it has less armor not only against small arms + anti-tank missiles but also for IEDs?

I know this is a difficult question but if you had to rate or pick which three IFV would you chose for:
On open mainly flat terrain to directly support and work with main battle tanks plus other mechanized equipment where you’re covering 200/300 mile distances in clips?
Seconds – Urban cities like in Iraq and dealing with ambushes, IEDs, close in fighting, quick reaction missions, medical pull out’s, planned assault on selected areas, and for protecting supply convoys insides cities?

Thanks

 

[kato]

Greece is buying 415 Russian BMP-3 Infantry Fighting Vehicles for $4 million each. [...] I don’t know prices on these types of vehicles but if Greece were to buy western types IFV what would have been some of there options for the same amount of money spent?

In a package deal with other stuff? Not much, really, if they want new stuff. The German refurbished Marder deal would always have been an option, probably even cheaper.

Are these the main countries that produce IFV?
[...]

Countries with IFVs in production or active development?
Add... oh, Sweden, Italy, UK, Ukraine, Japan, China, Austria/Spain, Argentina, India, Turkey, Finland, Romania... and a couple others.

 

[Waylander]

Jup, the Marders would have been an option.
But they are by no means as capable as the BMP-3s with added new Thermals and other electronic stuff.

For the same price I doubt that one can get something equal.

 

[swerve]

In a package deal with other stuff? Not much, really, if they want new stuff. The German refurbished Marder deal would always have been an option, probably even cheaper.


Countries with IFVs in production or active development?
Add... oh, Sweden, Italy, UK, Ukraine, Japan, China, Austria/Spain, Argentina, India, Turkey, Finland, Romania... and a couple others.

And Singapore.

But not Brazil, AFAIK.

UK doesn't have one in production (Warrior production line is closed), & development is at the level of examination of technologies for future AFVs.

 

[Waylander]

Does any body here has the prices for the Bionix or K-21 at hand?

You are defenitely not getting a new CV9030 Mk.III, Puma or Ulan/Pizarro for this prize but I am not sure about the two asian candidates.

Ok, the K-21 is not available as fast as the BMPs. What about the Bionix? Are there production capabilities available or does Singapore needs them for their own orders?

 

[evripide]

According to several news articles in Korea, price of K-21 will be around $3.5m, can be up to $4m. The budget for about 500-600 vehicles were approved in the last year, though the army needed 1600. So you may see the mass product ones quite soon.

Because the Korean army already have BMP-3s, you can predict K-21's capability.

 

[Waylander]

Did they modificate the BMPs in any way? (New thermals, etc.)

I suspect these 3,5-4 million$ are without spare parts, support, etc.?
Would make it still more expensive than the BMP-3s.

And going for an indigenous product is as much a decision of jobs, politics, money spent in country, pride and independence.

 

[eckherl]

Did they modificate the BMPs in any way? (New thermals, etc.)

I suspect these 3,5-4 million$ are without spare parts, support, etc.?
Would make it still more expensive than the BMP-3s.

And going for an indigenous product is as much a decision of jobs, politics, money spent in country, pride and independence.

No modifications for ROK BMP 3, used along DMZ and as a OPFOR vehicle with less that a battalion in service with no future of purchasing additional vehicles.

 

[evripide]

I dont think they modified BMPs except rubber pads on the caterpillars and the communcation instruments. The soldiers of bmps say there are two different variences not because of the modification but because of the different times of importing from Russia.

BMP-3 is clearly a good AFV. Good guns and nice mobility. I had a really good impression for these characters around 10 years ago. (At the moment, I was trained as a M48 driver. Compared to the M48, BMPs, T80Us, and K-1s were striking.)

Well, one important disadvantage of the BMP's is its armour may not be that safe and it is even agreed by the soldiers of bmps. Also the space for the infantries is limited and uncomfortable. Personally, I think safety and space were the major concerning of the army.

 

[Waylander]

Thanks for your replies.

 

[ROCK45]

Equipment

Thanks everybody for your replies to begin with. Now trying to breakdown the influx of useful information because I have more questions.

Hi evripide - I'll start with you because of your comment

"BMP-3 is clearly a good AFV. Good guns and nice mobility"

Not being in the field as one might say this kind of comment means more to me coming from somebody who done this for real. In fact I the up most respect for all of you who serve and that have done this and much more for real.

Now since the BMP-3 is light compared to the American Bradly can I assume there isn't much difference between the armor in a BMP-3 and BTR-90? I would like to think the armor in a tracked vehicle is a little heavier then a wheeled vehicle? But it seem like Russia's thinking is lighter means faster on the battle field thus giving up crew protection? Am I on track a little?

I will try and get to everybody and thanks

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif
Smile

 

[eckherl]

Please keep in mind that the BMP 3s sold to Greece will come with a Russian reactive armor package, thus giving it considerable more protection against shape charges, this is a new kit which is actually darn near half the weight and size as the one currently fielded by Russian and UAE vehicles. I think Russian BMP3s are also lined up for the new package also along with other upgrades.

 

[evripide]

This is a url of a clip of K-21 on youtube. But I am a new comer so I can't post the url directly. Simply add this after the youtube address.

/watch?v=4se_9WrWyPw

 

[Rythm]

I know this is a difficult question but if you had to rate or pick which three IFV would you chose for:
On open mainly flat terrain to directly support and work with main battle tanks plus other mechanized equipment where you’re covering 200/300 mile distances in clips?
Seconds – Urban cities like in Iraq and dealing with ambushes, IEDs, close in fighting, quick reaction missions, medical pull out’s, planned assault on selected areas, and for protecting supply convoys insides cities?

An impossible question to answer, but i´ll give it an academic shot.
For both scenarios i´d go for the following two, in no particular order:

CV9035NL
Puma

 

[ROCK45]

Equipment & Training

Thanks Rythm I realize it is a rather difficult question. I look up both vehicles and both look impressive and will read up them to learn them better.

eckherl - It seem Russia has a good product here? Are BTR-80/90 good vehicles too? Another question you mention South Korea using BMP-3s for me it's like countries using the two fighters I like. Like for example Greece using F-16 vs Mirage 2000-5. I know with aircraft its difficult to get information on mock training between the two but do our Bradly or what ever South Korea uses train against each other? What a great source of information? Like the Greece's use the Mirage 2000-5 in the fighter role, even know f16net says Vipers are better. Being on the outside I think Greece knows or sees something in the Mirage 2000-5 that they like it a little better as a fighter. They have both and train against each all the time so one would think they would know, right? Do the South Koreans see them first line gear or second?

A off the wall question to all without too much air power involved and not buying a large number of heavy tanks and jumping to South America. What would a country like Peru and say Argentina buy mechanized wise to counter a deep strike into either country against Chile's Leo I and IIs plus AFV, etc? Say Chile had a reason to do such a thing would BMP-3 be a choice? If you had to build either country over a three period to counter Chile's I think 400+ tanks now, how would you do it? One battle cutting into southern Peru and the other I assume cutting through mountain passes. I'm just trying to add a little detail I guess there might be flat places along the Chilean-Argentinean border, on the map it does look like all mountains?

 

[chakos]

Rock... All the BMP series vehicles were designed for offensive operations at heart and would have a very limited utility in defensive operations. This would go for most if not all IFV. In defence mobility is the lest important of the mobility/armor/firepower triad. You need entrenched infantry equipped with modern ATGM, air support, minefields (either pre deployed or able to be deployed through artillery and air power) and a defence in depth. Entrenched tanks would also be effective as they have the ability to absorb damage and most importantly artillery and keep fighting.

The major use for IFV in such a situation would be as a reserve armored force that could be used in counterattack. Possibly as a battalion or brigade sized battlefield reserve so when the enemy has bloodied their nose on your entrenched infantry you then use the mechanised forces to hit them from the flank, roll them up and possibly use the gap you just created to go on a general attack.

To cut a long story short, in a defensive situation i would prefer to have a platoon of 4 kornet or metis launchers disperesed amongst a company of infantry than a platoon of BMP3's that can be targetted and neutralised in the opening minutes of the battle. And this is coming from the opinion of someone who is a great fan of the BMP3

 

[eckherl]

Thanks Rythm I realize it is a rather difficult question. I look up both vehicles and both look impressive and will read up them to learn them better.

eckherl - It seem Russia has a good product here? Are BTR-80/90 good vehicles too? Another question you mention South Korea using BMP-3s for me it's like countries using the two fighters I like. Like for example Greece using F-16 vs Mirage 2000-5. I know with aircraft its difficult to get information on mock training between the two but do our Bradly or what ever South Korea uses train against each other? What a great source of information? Like the Greece's use the Mirage 2000-5 in the fighter role, even know f16net says Vipers are better. Being on the outside I think Greece knows or sees something in the Mirage 2000-5 that they like it a little better as a fighter. They have both and train against each all the time so one would think they would know, right? Do the South Koreans see them first line gear or second?

A off the wall question to all without too much air power involved and not buying a large number of heavy tanks and jumping to South America. What would a country like Peru and say Argentina buy mechanized wise to counter a deep strike into either country against Chile's Leo I and IIs plus AFV, etc? Say Chile had a reason to do such a thing would BMP-3 be a choice? If you had to build either country over a three period to counter Chile's I think 400+ tanks now, how would you do it? One battle cutting into southern Peru and the other I assume cutting through mountain passes. I'm just trying to add a little detail I guess there might be flat places along the Chilean-Argentinean border, on the map it does look like all mountains?

BMP 3 is a good vehicle, is it good enough for the ROK to implement some of design features into the K-21, the answer is no. I have been on a ROK BMP3 and a T-80U and I walked away with the impression that both are very capable vehicles in the hands of a well trained crew. Does the U.S train with ROK units the answer is yes on occasion, which units actually train together is rather sensitive information that I cannot go into detail on, but their big annual exercise is called Team Spirit and that is pretty much public record.

BTR 90 is also a good vehicle with advantages over a BTR80 in the following areas:

1. Better armor protection
2. Better armament
3. Better electronics

Both vehicles do have one big major design flaw though, the engine is at the rear of both vehicles thus forcing the ground pounders thru a side vehicle access point thus exposing them to enemy fire, after the amount of casualties that the Russians suffered during the Chechen wars using the BTR 80 one would think that they would fix this issue.

 

[ROCK45]

Btr-90

So all the BTR series have a flaw so if Peru were to purchase new equipment BMP-3 would be a good choice but look else where for wheeled vehicles. So now I hunt around for wheeled vehicles.

Thanks chakos

Thanks evripide
The K-21 looks good but would Peru need US approval to purchase arms from South Korea? Could South Korea sell the K-21 to Algeria?

 

[Waylander]

The only one who limits arms purchases from South Korea is SK itself.

So everybody is free to buy weapons from them if SK wants to sell these weapons.

Hmm, for somebody with a limited budget I think BMP-3 is a very good choice. The equipment is good enough for Peru's needs.
Put the money you saved into training. This will help you much more than fully using your budget on new equipment.

 

[swerve]

...
The K-21 looks good but would Peru need US approval to purchase arms from South Korea? Could South Korea sell the K-21 to Algeria?

Would only be restricted if the S. Korean arms contain US-supplied equipment which is covered by US arms transfer controls.