IAF Formations, and combat tactics

[srirangan]

An interesting report from Janes (http://frp.janes.com). IAF using Israeli tactics and advanced missiles?

Foreign report has obtained some intriguing information about a related development that could affect Israel's relations with the pro-Israeli US administration. By our informant's account, a number of Indian and US pilots practised dogfights, in which the US airmen expected their Indian counterparts to be wiped off their radar screens. The opposite is said to have happened. The US pilots were time and again 'shot down' by the Indian pilots. How come?

When the US pilots were debriefed by their commanders, they insisted that the Indians were flying in strange formations, almost like the Israelis. When the US investigated, it discovered that the Indian interception pilots had received special training in Israel from Israeli interception pilots. But this explanation was not enough for the US top brass. Further investigation showed that the Israelis had sold some of their latest air-to-air missiles, which can be launched in 360 degrees, to India. The US was furious; its pilots have no missiles of this kind. The US was aware of the Israeli capability, but was astonished about the sale to the Indians.

Amos Yaron, Director-General of Israel's Ministry of Defence, was asked for an explanation by the US, which had provided the finance for the Israelis to develop their missiles, although not the know-how. Yaron's explanation was not good enough for the US, so it approached the Israeli government and demanded Yaron be replaced. If he was not removed, there would be no US military co-operation. Nothing happened. Yaron will step down from his job in the summer. But what about Israel and the Indians?

Our prediction: The close Indo-Israeli relationship will continue, as will the much closer Israeli-US relationship. Israel's friends in Washington will see to that.

 

[Aussie Digger]

USAF has no air to air missiles of the kind made by Israel and deployed by India? Of course not why would they? They make their own superb air to air missiles. They've got the AIM-9X which is at least equal to any other WVRAAM going around and if they are referring to BVRAAM well, they've got AIM-120 AMRAAM which (at least results wise if not necessarily on paper) has proven to be the most capable air to air missile in existence... A missile which I might add, has Israel extremely upset, due to the fact that the USA is supplying it to Jordan...

I do not doubt the capabilities of the Python 4/5 AAM, (which I can only presume is what this article is talking about) but there are several other AAM's currently deployed which at least match this weapon, if not exceed it...

 

[Elite Brain]

Israel just got 5000 Bunker Busters, JDAAMS, AIM-120xmissiles and a few unspecified bombs.Jordan is getting some AIM-120 BVR missiles for their F-16s, UAE is getting 80 Bitching Block60 F16 E/Fs with a fairly large quantity of AIM-120 AMRAAMs but Egypt is not allowed to buy any advanced missiles for the Block 32 and Block 40 F16s? They are still equipped with the AIM-9 sidewinders and the Egyptians seem to be happy with their flying targets.

 

[adsH]

An interesting report from Janes (http://frp.janes.com). IAF using Israeli tactics and advanced missiles?

Foreign report has obtained some intriguing information about a related development that could affect Israel's relations with the pro-Israeli US administration. By our informant's account, a number of Indian and US pilots practised dogfights, in which the US airmen expected their Indian counterparts to be wiped off their radar screens. The opposite is said to have happened. The US pilots were time and again 'shot down' by the Indian pilots. How come?

When the US pilots were debriefed by their commanders, they insisted that the Indians were flying in strange formations, almost like the Israelis. When the US investigated, it discovered that the Indian interception pilots had received special training in Israel from Israeli interception pilots. But this explanation was not enough for the US top brass. Further investigation showed that the Israelis had sold some of their latest air-to-air missiles, which can be launched in 360 degrees, to India. The US was furious; its pilots have no missiles of this kind. The US was aware of the Israeli capability, but was astonished about the sale to the Indians.

Amos Yaron, Director-General of Israel's Ministry of Defence, was asked for an explanation by the US, which had provided the finance for the Israelis to develop their missiles, although not the know-how. Yaron's explanation was not good enough for the US, so it approached the Israeli government and demanded Yaron be replaced. If he was not removed, there would be no US military co-operation. Nothing happened. Yaron will step down from his job in the summer. But what about Israel and the Indians?

Our prediction: The close Indo-Israeli relationship will continue, as will the much closer Israeli-US relationship. Israel's friends in Washington will see to that.

u said this was a practice run, but then how the hell were they firing AAMs (confused) at each other. Oh and the US has the AIM 9X and if worst came to worse they could always procure our ASRAAM these were sim kills right!!

 

[baadal]

When the US pilots were debriefed by their commanders, they insisted that the Indians were flying in strange formations, almost like the Israelis. When the US investigated, it discovered that the Indian interception pilots had received special training in Israel from Israeli interception pilots. But this explanation was not enough for the US top brass. Further investigation showed that the Israelis had sold some of their latest air-to-air missiles, which can be launched in 360 degrees, to India.

Someone has no idea about the way exercises are conducted.

 

[ajay_ijn]

The big question is Does India Really have Python-4/5???
May the F-15s in the exercise were not fitted with Aim-9X but with Aim-9M.

 

[viper007]

The big question is Does India Really have Python-4/5???
May the F-15s in the exercise were not fitted with Aim-9X but with Aim-9M.

Ajay i think F-15s were carrying AIM-9X missiles. There are articles which mention have statements on Cope India (some coming from a USAF Offificial) -

1. IAF Mirages were simulating MICA missiles
2. Radars on Mirages were behaving differently from the standard Mirage-2k radars.

3. There was extensive data-linking between Su-30MkI, Mirage-2000 and MiG-21 BISON fighters.

4. Tactics were innovative (inspired by Israelis).

5. BVR combat was not long range. Each side limiting itself to 18-20nm and F-15s requiring CW guidance on AIM-120s (shows that they were actually trying to simulate an AIM-7)

I don't know the truth in these statements...but they are surprising.

 

[mysterious]

Even after months of that exercise, the whole point of it that I see was to get a know how on the Indian capabilities on the part of the US. The US hardly displayed anything advanced (including tactics) and got to know quite a bit about their counterparts (who I'm sure - atleast some of them - were definitely trying to show off their new skills a bit).

 

[viper007]

Even after months of that exercise, the whole point of it that I see was to get a know how on the Indian capabilities on the part of the US. The US hardly displayed anything advanced (including tactics) and got to know quite a bit about their counterparts (who I'm sure - atleast some of them - were definitely trying to show off their new skills a bit).

I respectfully disagree myst.

IAF has trained with French, USAF, South Africa and Singapore Air Force. Its not just about showing off tactics, its more about trying and improving them. The greatest indicator is the exercise Garuda with the French Mirages.

IAF Mirages were plastered by French pilots at medium ranges. So IAF had to instantly change their tactics on day-1 itself...by the end of the exercise, the IAF Mirages were getting shots almost simultaneously with the French. These exercises were conducted at base which not only houses the IAF Mirage squads, but the powerhouse of IAF tactics - TACDE.

It is not shocking to hear that USAF was plastered by IAF in Cope India. Coz Americans had to operate on rules they don't usually follow (they were cramped). Their pilots may not be great at creating new tactics in a tactical battle, but they know damn well how to work as a well oiled machine within their combat system. That is how they win wars, not by using the innovative skills of pilots and flight commanders. Had USAF been free to use all their resources....IAF was dead !!! But it has to be noticed that USAF was indeed complacent - they decided to leave the AESA logistical package and use regular radars on F-15s.

And if Cope India was not an indicator of changing tactics, Cope Thunder surely was. IAF Jaguars escorted by aircrafts from other nations scored well in Strike missions....they achieved the Mission Commander status thrice.

IAF is now moving away from conventional air combat. It is now introducing concepts like Strike Packages mixed with Escorts (instead of plain tactical formations), data-linking of fighters to achieve maximum surprise, effective use of short range fighters like MiG-21 BISON and Long range air-cover and coordination in form on Su-30s. These require time and extensive practice, unless tried against real and differing opponents, they are useless.

While these exercises carried more weight in terms of media coverage, I am waiting for the Indo-Israeli exercises. That is the real test - DASH equipped fighters, medium range Derby and AIM-120 AAMs and exceptionally refined tactics of Israeli pilots.

 

[mysterious]

I dont think that you really said anything different than what I was trying to say. Mine was just a wee bit brief.