History Repeats Itself

Nemeses2011

New Member
So, I just got through reading a dozen Deffense websites and Gates speech and focuses on the next 5 years and noticed something.

It was the 1980s, and the US had 4 main bombers/fighters:

B-2 = Heavy Bomber
F-117 = Light Bomber
F-15 = Air Superiority Fighter
F-16 = Strike Fighter

Now, focus on 2020, going by Gates words mind you. You could put it like so:

B-(?) = Heavy Bomber
X-47 (Just say it was chosen) = Light Bomber
F-22 = Air Superiority Fighter
F-35 = Strike Fighter


Anyways, I just found it funny how history repeated itself when it comes to the USN/USAF.
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
The B-2 (IOC in 1997) was not around in the '80s (it was the B-52 and B-1b that took that roll).

The F-117 did not come into play until the late '80s. The F-111 was the light/medium bomber.
 

Nemeses2011

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The B-2 (IOC in 1997) was not around in the '80s (it was the B-52 and B-1b that took that roll).

The F-117 did not come into play until the late '80s. The F-111 was the light/medium bomber.
Sorry, my point was if their was a war 10-20 years ago, those would be the aircraft to be used in the war. I guess I should have said 80's-90's. My my latter point still stands on the 2020 outlook going under certain circumstances with the speech, i.e. Gates saying we need UCAV's and a manned/manned fighter/bomber for both the USAF and USN.

Once again, my bad.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Sorry, my point was if their was a war 10-20 years ago, those would be the aircraft to be used in the war. I guess I should have said 80's-90's. My my latter point still stands on the 2020 outlook going under certain circumstances with the speech, i.e. Gates saying we need UCAV's and a manned/manned fighter/bomber for both the USAF and USN.

Once again, my bad.
There was actually considerably more air combat aircraft than those types listed in US inventory.

Left off the initial list were:
F-14 Tomcat
F/A-18 Hornet
AV-8 Harrier
A-10 Warthog
A-4 Skyhawk
A-6 Intruder
A-7 Corsair II
F-105 Thunderchief (in ANG units)
F-106 Delta Dart

and still more...

Many of these aircraft were not finally retired from service until the mid or late 1990's, or in some cases, after 2001. Others are still in service.

Pretty much the conclusion which can be reached, is that in the event of a war, aircraft (manned or unmanned) will still be needed to meet transport, interceptor, bombing/strike and ISR roles. That is as true now as it was seven decades ago when WWII was going on over in Europe. It will likely only change when air travel/mobility no longer is a significant factor in warfare.

-Cheers
 

My2Cents

Active Member
I think his point was that there were the same 4 major classes of aircraft:

Heavy Bomber
Light Bomber
Air Superiority Fighter
Strike Fighter

But what is the question?
 

Nemeses2011

New Member
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I think his point was that there were the same 4 major classes of aircraft:

Heavy Bomber
Light Bomber
Air Superiority Fighter
Strike Fighter

But what is the question?

Bingo. You put the words right into my mouth. Yeah, their was no question, I just wanted to point out the similarities between that generation and the up-incoming generation. I just thought it was interesting and see what people thought of the strategy of the US. Wither it was planned ahead that way, or by coincidence.
 

SASWanabe

Member
doesnt always repeat itself, look at the RAAF

1980
Mirage III - fighter interceptor
Canberra - Bomber
F-111 - Strategic bomber
A4 skyhawk - ground attack

2020
F-35 - Multirole Stealth Fighter
F18 E/F - multirole Fighter

we have changed alot
 

Nemeses2011

New Member
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doesnt always repeat itself, look at the RAAF

1980
Mirage III - fighter interceptor
Canberra - Bomber
F-111 - Strategic bomber
A4 skyhawk - ground attack

2020
F-35 - Multirole Stealth Fighter
F18 E/F - multirole Fighter

we have changed alot
Yeah, that sucks man. I wish the guys down under would have a bigger defense budget. But hey, look at the bright side, you are getting brand-spanking new F-18's E/F. By the way, how many do you currently have? And still planning for delivery? Look at the bright side, that plane is more advanced then anything in China's Air Force. Speaking of Australia, are you guy's still plan on buying some surface ships and subs? I heard you guys are purchasing a couple of subs awhile back

EDIT: Looks like you added F-18 E/F.....lol
 

SASWanabe

Member
couldnt decide wether to add them or not, i remember hearing theyre supposed to be mothballed by/in 2020

from memory we have 15/24 SH

were "Doubling" our sub fleet. (yeah right)
were meant to be getting 3 Hobart class Air Warefare Destroyers
8 ANZAC II (But their a ways off)
12 subs (we have 6 atm)
2 LHDs and 1 sealift ship.

still think we need to find some Long Range Bombers to replace the F-111s
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Bingo. You put the words right into my mouth. Yeah, their was no question, I just wanted to point out the similarities between that generation and the up-incoming generation. I just thought it was interesting and see what people thought of the strategy of the US. Wither it was planned ahead that way, or by coincidence.
It's a little more complex with the advent of multi-role fighter. Now you have the same birds flying air-superiority and strike.
 

Nemeses2011

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It's a little more complex with the advent of multi-role fighter. Now you have the same birds flying air-superiority and strike.
Would you say the F-35 makes a good Strike Fighter? Also, do you see any competition to the F-35? PAK FA seems like a superiority fighter, it's early though, but so does the J-20. So, in a sense, the F-35 seems like the only true 5th gen multi-role fighter for the next 10 years or so...
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Would you say the F-35 makes a good Strike Fighter? Also, do you see any competition to the F-35? PAK FA seems like a superiority fighter, it's early though, but so does the J-20. So, in a sense, the F-35 seems like the only true 5th gen multi-role fighter for the next 10 years or so...
The PAK-FA will probably be a major improvement over existing strike capabilities on the Fencer, Su-27SMs, etc. It's also been posited as a multi-role fighter. We won't know the details, but I wouldn't be surprised if a new generation of air-ground munitions is developed for the PAK-FA (and retro-actively, all older fighters).
 

My2Cents

Active Member
Bingo. You put the words right into my mouth. Yeah, their was no question, I just wanted to point out the similarities between that generation and the up-incoming generation. I just thought it was interesting and see what people thought of the strategy of the US. Wither it was planned ahead that way, or by coincidence.
That’s because they are job descriptions. The designs change, sometimes the names change, but you still need something to fill the slot for each job.
It's a little more complex with the advent of multi-role fighter. Now you have the same birds flying air-superiority and strike.
Not at all. Strike fighter, multi-role fighter, and fighter-bomber are interchangeable names for the same thing. It is just different countries calling them different things at different times. Or some marketing company trying to make them sound special in the advertisements.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Not at all. Strike fighter, multi-role fighter, and fighter-bomber are interchangeable names for the same thing. It is just different countries calling them different things at different times. Or some marketing company trying to make them sound special in the advertisements.
There actually has been some changes, with the fighter-bomber descriptor pretty much fallen into disuse. In terms of strike fighters and multi-role fighters, there is a bit of a difference.

A strike fighter most often is kitted out for a strike mission, but also with some air to air armament, enabling it to do at least limited self-escort for a strike mission.

With multi-role fighters, the emphasis is more on being able to rapidly re-role the aircraft between sorties. Initial sortie could be to achieve air supremacy, then land, refuel and re-arm. This time, the kit is for a SEAD/DEAD sortie. Again, land, refuel and re-equip. This time though, targeting pods are included to allow red force detection and relay of information to blue forces.

If one looks at the aircraft in the US inventory even from the 1980's or 1990's, there were many instances of fighter aircraft, then dedicated attack/strike aircraft as well. As time progressed, and upgrades were completed on the newer series of fighter aircraft, they (F-15, F-16 and F-18) were kitted out with systems which used to be found on the A-series of aircraft. Part of the reason behind this change, was that many of the A-series aircraft (A-4, A-6, A-7, etc) were subsonic attack jets designed in the immediate post-Korean War era and many had seen service in Vietnam. As such, the aircraft were not new, which means as airframes age, they become more difficult and cost intensive to maintain, they can also become more difficult to keep upgrading. By adding more capabilities to the newer designs like the Eagle, Falcon and Hornet, then older aircraft can be phased out and replaced with new models of aircraft already in service. This rationalization of fleet inventory can make training personnel easier, and reduce the burden on maintenance. Another advantage from doing so was that the newer fighters were much more capable aircraft than their predecessors, between the addition of equipment for attack and strike missions, plus the already designed in air combat radars, modern multi-role fighters began to appear. This eased the burden on the system since the current aircraft had a reduced need for fighter escorts during mission sorties, again making things more efficient.

The basic roles still exist, but what has changed in a number of instances, is that smaller numbers of aircraft and designs are required to fufill these roles.

-Cheers
 

My2Cents

Active Member
There actually has been some changes, with the fighter-bomber descriptor pretty much fallen into disuse. In terms of strike fighters and multi-role fighters, there is a bit of a difference.

A strike fighter most often is kitted out for a strike mission, but also with some air to air armament, enabling it to do at least limited self-escort for a strike mission.

With multi-role fighters, the emphasis is more on being able to rapidly re-role the aircraft between sorties. Initial sortie could be to achieve air supremacy, then land, refuel and re-arm. This time, the kit is for a SEAD/DEAD sortie. Again, land, refuel and re-equip. This time though, targeting pods are included to allow red force detection and relay of information to blue forces.
Lets see if I have the definitions straight.

If an aircraft is supposed to be used as a fighter more often than as an attack craft then it is a ‘multi-role fighter’, but if it is supposed to be used as an attack craft more than as a fighter it is a ‘strike fighter’? Or does the aircraft designation change over time depending on the actual usage statistics?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Lets see if I have the definitions straight.

If an aircraft is supposed to be used as a fighter more often than as an attack craft then it is a ‘multi-role fighter’, but if it is supposed to be used as an attack craft more than as a fighter it is a ‘strike fighter’? Or does the aircraft designation change over time depending on the actual usage statistics?
My understanding (with the caveat that it is MY understanding, I could be wrong) is that a strike fighter is generally going to be a high speed attack/bomber aircraft, but also have some capacity for air to air engagement. Unless events force the aircraft to do so, it would not be sortied to engage aircraft, either as an intercept or CAP.

If one looks at most of the last generation of attack/strike aircraft, like the A-4,A-6, A-7,or even the F-117, these were high subsonic jets. As a result, they did not have the capability to conduct a rapid ingress or egress. The F-111 was capable of rapid ingress/egress, and incidentally could carry a cannon and WVR missiles for some self-defense capability.

Things also started to get muddled when the F/A-18 was given the F/A designation, to indicate that not only was it a fighter aircraft, but also an attack aircraft. This was done because the Hornet began to assume a number of the operational roles that had been fufilled by the Skyhawks, Intruders and Corsair II's before those aircraft were stood down,

Of course though, both the useage and definition are going to change over time.

-Cheers
 

My2Cents

Active Member
If one looks at most of the last generation of attack/strike aircraft, like the A-4,A-6, A-7,or even the F-117, these were high subsonic jets. As a result, they did not have the capability to conduct a rapid ingress or egress. The F-111 was capable of rapid ingress/egress, and incidentally could carry a cannon and WVR missiles for some self-defense capability.

Things also started to get muddled when the F/A-18 was given the F/A designation, to indicate that not only was it a fighter aircraft, but also an attack aircraft. This was done because the Hornet began to assume a number of the operational roles that had been fufilled by the Skyhawks, Intruders and Corsair II's before those aircraft were stood down,

Of course though, both the useage and definition are going to change over time.
The F-4 Phantom II (interceptor fighter/fighter-bomber) and the F-15E Strike Eagle (strike fighter) muddle the definition even more.
 

LeGrig

New Member
...
Of course though, both the useage and definition are going to change over time.

My understanding is also that time put the stamp in evolving from "fighter/bomber" term to "multirole".
Initially (more than two decades ago), the ground attack aircraft needed some air-to-air [fighter] capability for a minimum self-defence. Also, the fighters have been equipped with air-to-ground capabilities, for several reasons. These were the fighter/bombers. The technology that time did not allow more sofisticated design.
Later, it was possible to install both air-to-air and air-to-ground weaponry on the same plane, with satisfactory performances on both missions. These ones came to be called multirole. Still, more to improve such design in order to become really efective at the top level.
I think the term fighter/bomber will be out of use once the old versions of genuine fighter/bombers will go out of use.
 

pingjockey

New Member
History repeat

:mad: Actually with history repeating itself. Here we are in 2011. The free world is in ecomnomic collaspe, Multiple free democratic nation's are cutting their defense budgets, defense R&D, and putting all the eggs in one basket. EXP; one type of ship, one type of aircaft, etc, etc.
The late 20's, and 30's ... depresion! Militaries drastically reduced after WW1. Rise of Germany, and Japan, the slaughter of thousands because nations were not properly prepared. You get my drift, where this is going.:shudder Replaced Germany, and Japan with China, Iran, n. Korea... any so call roque states. We all best get our head out of the sand, and wake up!
God bless, and passed the ammo! :gun
 

My2Cents

Active Member
Actually with history repeating itself. Here we are in 2011. The free world is in ecomnomic collaspe, Multiple free democratic nation's are cutting their defense budgets, defense R&D, and putting all the eggs in one basket. one type of ship, one type of aircaft, etc, etc.
The late 20's, and 30's ... depresion! Militaries drastically reduced after WW1. Rise of Germany, and Japan, the slaughter of thousands because nations were not properly prepared. You get my drift, where this is going. Replaced Germany, and Japan with China, Iran, n. Korea... any so call roque states. We all best get our head out of the sand, and wake up!
Good analogy.

OK, China plays Germany. Korea will play the part of Spain, where new concepts get tried out before the main event. Poor Russia gets to be itself (Russian paranoia is not an accident of history). Japan gets to role of Britain. Iran gets to play Japan in the Persian Gulf. Syria, Lebanon, and possibly Turkey are Italy.

Any more casting suggestions for the farce?:rel

They created the League of Nations at the end of WWI, and the United Nations after WWII. What do you think they will call the next one?
 
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