Helmet Mounted Cueing systems

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Mowers

New Member
A couple of questions really regarding Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (HMCS) in the form of JHMCS like capability levels.

1) Does the MiG-29 or the SU-30 have a HCMS like capability?

2) Does this forum think that the strike varients of Mirage 2000-9 and Tornadoes will be upgraded with a HCMS like capability before they are retired?
 
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falcon2k7

New Member
The MIG-29 has had a HMS since at least the 1990's, and I think it was part of the program as far back as 1985 off the top of my head. Combined with the Archer missile system it gave MIG pilots an advantage, or so they claimed, in short turning dogfights as they could "look down and shoot down."

The Isrealis have had their DASh system for a number of years as well with the Python Missile system. The US was relatively late to the game as the AIM-9X was just fielded in 2003 with the helmet mounted sights.
 
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eaf-f16

New Member
Mowers said:
A couple of questions really regarding Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (HMCS) in the form of JHMCS like capability levels.

1) Does the MiG-29 or the SU-30 have a HCMS like capability?

2) Does this forum think that the strike varients of Mirage 2000-9 and Tornadoes will be upgraded with a HCMS like capability before they are retired?
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I think the MiG-29 had the very first operational HMS (I actually think it was Russian idea) but I'm not sure.
 
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LancerMc

New Member
EAF you are correct, the Russian were the first AF to merge the use of helmet mounted sights and off bore sight IR missiles. Western designs have been seriously lacking the capability until recently with the USAF buying large amount of then from Boeing.
 
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Oryx

New Member
LancerMc said:
EAF you are correct, the Russian were the first AF to merge the use of helmet mounted sights and off bore sight IR missiles. Western designs have been seriously lacking the capability until recently with the USAF buying large amount of then from Boeing.
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Do you know approximately when the Russians (Soviets at the time) first started using their HMS operationally? I know the South Africans had it in service with the V3A in 1978. I believe other countries have done experiments with similar systems even earlier, although I am not sure any of those really became fully operational (the US Navy I think was one of these). I am not completely convinced the Soviets were the first.

BTW, the new HMDs such as the ones they are introducing onto Gripen (and similar system on Eurofighter) are a completely new generation of helmet mounted displays. They give a pilot a lot more info than the early HMS used by the South Africans, Israelis and Russians. I think the F-35 so far will get the most ambitious system yet, where they plan to completely remove the HUD. I am not 100% convinced that technology is ready yet, as I have heard in experiments most pilots prefer a fixed reference (such as a HUD) in certain circumstances. Still, it is a very interesting approach and probably the way to go long term.
 
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Oryx

New Member
eaf-f16 said:
I think the MiG-29 had the very first operational HMS (I actually think it was Russian idea) but I'm not sure.
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I wrote my earlier post before I saw this - I don't know if the Soviets had the system earlier in their MiG-23s, which is why I asked the question. There is, however, no way the MiG-29 was the first - see my comments about the South Africans and V3A missile (1978 was considerably before the first MiG-29 flew).

When did the Israeli's first start using it?
 
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Oryx

New Member
eaf-f16 said:
Late 80's to early 90's maybe before. The Israelis used in conjunction with the Python 3.

I don't know about the South Africans using it I'll have to look that up.
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There is a bit of background here, if you are interested:
http://www.saairforce.co.za/weapons.htm

The first was the V3A, but the one most commonly flown on the Mirages during the Angolan conflict was the V3B. My dates were actually out - the V3A was in service even earlier than 1978 - around 1975 seems to be a more accurate date. During the small number of times the V3B was actually fired in anger, no hits were scored - but that was a missile limitation, the cuing system worked fine. The later V3C was much better.

As an interesting aside, they started using the V3S while work on the V3C was still underway. The V3S really are Israeli Python 3s, although they still preferred their own HMS over the Israeli one.
 
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