Has Hungary sold off any of its surplus MiG-21s??
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Hungary Gripen/AF news
I didn't want to start a new thread about Hungary and did a searched and found this one.
Hungary considers alternatives to Gripens
bbj.hu
05. 23, 2008. Friday 08:36
Hungary does not seem to have the money to buy more Gripen military aircraft to replace its aging MiG-29s and boost flight hours, and possible alternatives under consideration include purchasing cheaper aircraft from the Czech Republic.
The measure would include raising the number of flight hours allowed its existing Gripens or keeping the MiG-29s in service, Defense Minister Imre Szekeres said at an event to mark the 70th anniversary of the establishment of the Hungarian Air Force on Thursday.
Buying another 14 Gripen aircraft (Hungary is currently leasing 14 Gripens in a deal expected to cost about Ft 210 billion by 2016) would cost about Ft 145 billion, and maintenance costs would come to Ft 5 billion a year, money that is not in the budget, Szekeres said. An alternative would be to buy L-159 training jets from the Czech Republic or to increase the flight hours allowed in the leased Gripen aircraft from an annual 160 to 200. Raising the Gripen flight hours would cost about Ft 6 billion per aircraft over the term of the lease, he said. The Air Force could also keep its MiG-29s in service, but this would mean significant costs too, and pilots would have to “unlearn” their training in order to fly the aircraft.
The government has until the end of 2008 to decide how the flight hours of Hungary's military pilots are to be increased, Szekeres said.
Szekeres said the Air Force is overhauling the remaining five of seven Mi-17 helicopters at a cost of Ft 5 billion in 2008 and 2009. The Air Force also uses Mi-8 helicopters, but these are so outdated it would not be cost efficient to overhaul them, he added.
After 2010, the purchase of ten modern carrier helicopters will be necessary. The aircraft will cost about Ft 9 billion a year to keep up.
The Air Force's Mi-24 fighter helicopters, which Hungary uses for its NATO tasks, must also be overhauled, Szekeres said.
He said the Air Force uses the capacity of its An-26 carrier aircraft intensively. But the aircraft can only be operated on the Armed Forces' current missions with big compromises and low efficiency. Buying new aircraft for these tasks could be considered after 2010.
The Armed Forces plan to buy another 140 Mistral anti-aircraft missiles in 2011-2014. (MTI – Econews)
News loc:
http://www.bbj.hu/news/news_39752.html
Link
http://www.bbj.hu/main/news_39752_hungary+considers+alternatives+to+gripens.html
I didn't want to start a new thread about Hungary and did a searched and found this one.
Hungary considers alternatives to Gripens
bbj.hu
05. 23, 2008. Friday 08:36
Hungary does not seem to have the money to buy more Gripen military aircraft to replace its aging MiG-29s and boost flight hours, and possible alternatives under consideration include purchasing cheaper aircraft from the Czech Republic.
The measure would include raising the number of flight hours allowed its existing Gripens or keeping the MiG-29s in service, Defense Minister Imre Szekeres said at an event to mark the 70th anniversary of the establishment of the Hungarian Air Force on Thursday.
Buying another 14 Gripen aircraft (Hungary is currently leasing 14 Gripens in a deal expected to cost about Ft 210 billion by 2016) would cost about Ft 145 billion, and maintenance costs would come to Ft 5 billion a year, money that is not in the budget, Szekeres said. An alternative would be to buy L-159 training jets from the Czech Republic or to increase the flight hours allowed in the leased Gripen aircraft from an annual 160 to 200. Raising the Gripen flight hours would cost about Ft 6 billion per aircraft over the term of the lease, he said. The Air Force could also keep its MiG-29s in service, but this would mean significant costs too, and pilots would have to “unlearn” their training in order to fly the aircraft.
The government has until the end of 2008 to decide how the flight hours of Hungary's military pilots are to be increased, Szekeres said.
Szekeres said the Air Force is overhauling the remaining five of seven Mi-17 helicopters at a cost of Ft 5 billion in 2008 and 2009. The Air Force also uses Mi-8 helicopters, but these are so outdated it would not be cost efficient to overhaul them, he added.
After 2010, the purchase of ten modern carrier helicopters will be necessary. The aircraft will cost about Ft 9 billion a year to keep up.
The Air Force's Mi-24 fighter helicopters, which Hungary uses for its NATO tasks, must also be overhauled, Szekeres said.
He said the Air Force uses the capacity of its An-26 carrier aircraft intensively. But the aircraft can only be operated on the Armed Forces' current missions with big compromises and low efficiency. Buying new aircraft for these tasks could be considered after 2010.
The Armed Forces plan to buy another 140 Mistral anti-aircraft missiles in 2011-2014. (MTI – Econews)
News loc:
http://www.bbj.hu/news/news_39752.html
Link
http://www.bbj.hu/main/news_39752_hungary+considers+alternatives+to+gripens.html
I think the last may be slightly wrong. Perhaps what is meant is L-159 light combat aircraft, the single-seat L-159 ALCA.
L-159 light combat aircraft,
Good pick up swerve I didn't catch that in the article. I always like the -159 light combat aircraft and never understood why sales were never made. Maybe buyers would question follow up support for spares etc, but I alway felt enough were made and that wouldn't be a problem. I still think besides in just the training role that it would have been a good COIN/light attack type aircraft as well. I can see this aircraft flying in South America in the A-37 role or a African country in the K-8 role.
I think for maintaining modern jets no matter the type are expensive period no matter the type. Hungary going to have to work that out first before a section is made. Rushing into a selection without long term planning is wasteful and could hurt there Air Force for years to come.
Maybe going back to the basics is what needed:
Inventory what they have now-what's good or maybe what can be cut
What are there future needs- Threats, training needs, etc
Less aircraft - Maybe just a simple choice of buying less aircraft so they just don't sit on the ground and be useless. Maybe a combo of fighters and advance trainers could cover there needs. Smaller number of fighter to bring down cost and use the trainers to work up pilots and maintenance crew keeping your Air Force active and current? This way you don't lose key personnel or the skill set needed to maintain a modern force. If flight hours are a problem now I don't see this working anytime soon.
Good pick up swerve I didn't catch that in the article. I always like the -159 light combat aircraft and never understood why sales were never made. Maybe buyers would question follow up support for spares etc, but I alway felt enough were made and that wouldn't be a problem. I still think besides in just the training role that it would have been a good COIN/light attack type aircraft as well. I can see this aircraft flying in South America in the A-37 role or a African country in the K-8 role.
I think for maintaining modern jets no matter the type are expensive period no matter the type. Hungary going to have to work that out first before a section is made. Rushing into a selection without long term planning is wasteful and could hurt there Air Force for years to come.
Maybe going back to the basics is what needed:
Inventory what they have now-what's good or maybe what can be cut
What are there future needs- Threats, training needs, etc
Less aircraft - Maybe just a simple choice of buying less aircraft so they just don't sit on the ground and be useless. Maybe a combo of fighters and advance trainers could cover there needs. Smaller number of fighter to bring down cost and use the trainers to work up pilots and maintenance crew keeping your Air Force active and current? This way you don't lose key personnel or the skill set needed to maintain a modern force. If flight hours are a problem now I don't see this working anytime soon.
Atilla [TR]
New Member
Why don't they get F-16 Block 60 or something really capable airplanes and the U.S would loan them money to get them. 
But personally I think the only choice is the gripen. But they could get old ADV Tornado's.
But personally I think the only choice is the gripen. But they could get old ADV Tornado's.Hungarys problem is money. F-16 Block 60 is more expensive than Gripen, both to buy & operate, & a loan to buy them wouldn't make them cheaper. The financing deal for Gripen is already probably better than the US can offer, as it keeps the capital cost off the books, so officially, public debt doesn't go up. Another type would also add to the logistical overhead, increasing costs.Atilla [TR];143773 said:Why don't they get F-16 Block 60 or something really capable airplanes and the U.S would loan them money to get them.
ADV Tornados are being retired with too few remaining airframe hours to be worth buying unless 1) you intend very low usage or 2) you do a structural upgrade. If 1), why bother? If 2), too expensive. Operating costs are much higher than Gripen, & again, there's the logistical overhead of a second type.
The argument in favour of L-159 ALCA is that it is a cheap way to add some capacity. Firstly, cheap to buy. It's inherently cheaper (much less capable, much smaller - of course it is!), its operating costs are much, much lower even than Gripen, the Czechs will do a very good price as they're desperate to sell some of their surplus (it costs them money just to keep the aircraft in store) & the logistical overhead is mitigated by the manufacturer, & the current sole operator, being right next door & having spare support capacity which can be made available pretty cheap.
Atilla [TR]
New Member
What about the Jf-17? Probably more capable then that Czech Plane, cheaper then the Gripen.
The L-159 is a good choice. It would be cheap to buy, cheaper to operate than MiGs, can also replace the L-39's and of course the Czech support is right next door.
Why would you want to buy JF-17s? What threat is there to Hungary that requires 2 types of supersonic fighter and warrants all the costs and logistics involved? If anything I would take on some more Gripens* (Say 6-10) and buy some L-159's to replace the remaining Migs (those not replaced by second Gripen order) and the L-39's.
*if anything because 14 is the sort of number where a couple of accidents could leave your combat Squadron short.
Why would you want to buy JF-17s? What threat is there to Hungary that requires 2 types of supersonic fighter and warrants all the costs and logistics involved? If anything I would take on some more Gripens* (Say 6-10) and buy some L-159's to replace the remaining Migs (those not replaced by second Gripen order) and the L-39's.
*if anything because 14 is the sort of number where a couple of accidents could leave your combat Squadron short.
Atilla [TR]
New Member
Since Hungary does not own the Gripens they would only need 1 type. Jf-17 is a cheaper plane but seriously the Gripen is probably the best choice.
Atilla [TR]
New Member
They do not use them anymore (Mig 21), and they never had the lancer version. Last they used them was in 2001. Does anyone know the price for each Gripen and if it can be equipped with HMCS? And how much a block 60 F-16 costs?
Prices
The UAE is the only user of the Block-60 and its difficult to really work out the price because they invested in the R&D cost of the ASAE radar. It's pretty safe to assume they are the most expensive Viper produced. You can find some info here http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article22.html
This is a example of offsets involved in fighter prices
Getting correct fighter prices is difficult unless the buyer/seller releases such information to the public. Maybe somebody could fill in a little more background on Hungary's needs because it seems like they can't afford what they have now never mind taking on more.
The UAE is the only user of the Block-60 and its difficult to really work out the price because they invested in the R&D cost of the ASAE radar. It's pretty safe to assume they are the most expensive Viper produced. You can find some info here http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article22.html
This is a example of offsets involved in fighter prices
http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article.php?a_id=132887
Getting correct fighter prices is difficult unless the buyer/seller releases such information to the public. Maybe somebody could fill in a little more background on Hungary's needs because it seems like they can't afford what they have now never mind taking on more.
This is a common misunderstanding. Many people think that Hungarian Gripens are rented, & at the end of the lease, will be returned. This is incorrect. The contract was changed very early on (February 2003) to a "lease to buy" arrangement. When Hungary makes the final lease payment, it will own the Gripens, & it is taken for granted in all informed discussion that Hungary will make the final payment, & keep the Gripens. It would be completely insane not to.Atilla [TR];143836 said:
See this press release.
May be, that incompletely here truth topic, but there are Gripen in this fink:
http://www.panoramio.com/user/1222070/tags/Kecskem%C3%A9t
And from an other Hungarian base pictures:
http://www.panoramio.com/user/1222070/tags/Szolnok
http://www.panoramio.com/user/1222070/tags/Kecskem%C3%A9t
And from an other Hungarian base pictures:
http://www.panoramio.com/user/1222070/tags/Szolnok
Hungary sold it MiG-21 aeroplane ones. The machines will not be destroyed. His parts get to a Russian or Ukrainian firm after a disassembly. The machines store it on the Pápa Air Base. See:
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/14292909
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/14292909