I noticed Germany has been having a bonanza on Leo2 sales for quite some time. Are they selling the old stock of their inventory they no longer want? Are these being replaced with brand new models 1:1? Or is the Bundeswehr making reductions in over-all standing force strength?
German Tank sales
- Thread starter Big-E
- Start date
Well I think they are not going to replace 1:1 because they are only getting 410 of the new IFV in 2010. So therefore I can't see them doing a 1:1 replacement. It looks like they might be going with a lighter armoured structure with a more rapid deployable force and reduce its heavy armour formations. I also think that they will have move airportable units and wheeled units, using the A400 and Fennek ARV. Also they are upgrading some of their A5's to A6 standard.
I had a look at their website and my germans a bit rusty but thats what I sort of worked out.
So overall I don't think there are reducing their forces but shifting the balance towards l a lighter more rapid force.
I had a look at their website and my germans a bit rusty but thats what I sort of worked out.
So overall I don't think there are reducing their forces but shifting the balance towards l a lighter more rapid force.
Going down . . . . not replacing any of those they sell. Some have been upgraded to 2A6 standard. Only basic 2A4 have been sold, but some of the customers (e.g. Denmark) have upgraded them, or plan to.
Everyone is reducing inventory. The Netherlands has sold some surplus Leopard 2 (including upgraded to A5 or even A6), Switzerland has 150 or so spare (A5 equivalent) & has invited offers for "about 100" of them, & Sweden would probably consider offers for some or all of their ex-Bundeswehr A4 (but not the Strv122). So far, the list of sales & purchases is -
Bought/sold Total
Switzerland 380
Sweden 120 (& 160 used)
Greece 170 (& 183 used)
Spain 219 (& 108 used)
Netherlands 445
-115 330 (Austria)
-52 278 (Norway)
-36 242 (Portugal)
Germany 2125
-160 1965 (Sweden)
-57 1908 (Denmark)
-124 1784 (Finland)
-128 1656 (Poland)
-183 1473 (Greece)
-298 1175 (Turkey)
-118 1057 (Chile)
-108 949 (Spain)
-96 853 (Singapore)
If I remember what I've read correctly ...
I think their threat matrix being changed due to the demise of the soviet bloc (and their tank hordes) resulting in the German republic no longer being a frontline state under direct threat.
edit: to include below link
Just found this link from a local forum.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=735647&C=commentary
"How dramatic the [German] Army's transformation really is can be seen in Structure 2010, to be adopted as of 2007. The service will reduce its fleet of main battle tanks from 2,528 to 350, infantry fighting vehicles from 2,077 to 410, artillery pieces from 1,055 to 120 and helicopters from 530 to 240..."
Yes, they're selling surplus stock from their reserves.
I think their threat matrix being changed due to the demise of the soviet bloc (and their tank hordes) resulting in the German republic no longer being a frontline state under direct threat.
I'm quite sure they are not replacing them with brand new 2A6 MBTs 1:1 or even at all. Although, as suggested by Mick73, "replacement" by lighter armoured platforms to suit the new roles the Bundeswehr is facing. Though again not at a 1:1 level. IIRC, the Bundeswehr did undergo a force reduction in the late 90s and the result could be this fire sale of surplus to strength 2A4s from their reserves and will also explain why any replacements will not be at the 1:1 level.
edit: to include below link
Just found this link from a local forum.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=735647&C=commentary
"How dramatic the [German] Army's transformation really is can be seen in Structure 2010, to be adopted as of 2007. The service will reduce its fleet of main battle tanks from 2,528 to 350, infantry fighting vehicles from 2,077 to 410, artillery pieces from 1,055 to 120 and helicopters from 530 to 240..."
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After a bit more digging...
It looks like:
6 x MBT Bn(42 MBT's) = 252-2A5/2A6's
8 x Mech Inf Bn + 1 Reserve Mech Bn(40 IFV's) 360- Puma IFV's
Plus a stack of other armoured recon vehicles etc.
There is going to be a reduction in Arty units but the new ones will be more capable and they look like they will expand the Engineers: 6 Bns and 5 Coys.
I guess they want to have the ability to deploy more units on UN and NATO operations. I don't know what they had before but I think it was a lot more than this but this looks like a good sized force!
It looks like:
6 x MBT Bn(42 MBT's) = 252-2A5/2A6's
8 x Mech Inf Bn + 1 Reserve Mech Bn(40 IFV's) 360- Puma IFV's
Plus a stack of other armoured recon vehicles etc.
There is going to be a reduction in Arty units but the new ones will be more capable and they look like they will expand the Engineers: 6 Bns and 5 Coys.
I guess they want to have the ability to deploy more units on UN and NATO operations. I don't know what they had before but I think it was a lot more than this but this looks like a good sized force!
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #6
Those numbers almost make me want to cry... :teary
Quite right: all German 2A5 & 2A6 are upgraded from 2A4. Only Sweden, Spain & Greece have new-build tanks later than 2A4. All other 2A5/6 are upgrades.
contedicavour
New Member
Not that surprising once you look at Germany's neighbors... France has 350 MBTs in all, Italy 320, Belgium is dropping MBTs altogether, etc etc.
In Europe only Greece still maintains a large MBT force.
However what is strange is that not all countries are giving up the firepower that MBTs delivered... what I mean is that heavy wheeled vehicles are taking up part of the missing firepower. Italian Centauro 8x8 with 105mm (and probably soon the same 120mm as the Ariete MBTs) are an example of a powerful non MBT vehicle that can easily be deployed on overseas missions.
cheers
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #9
Are we witnessing the death of MBTs?
contedicavour
New Member
Probably not, but they are becoming more marginal, with only a few dedicated regiments in each major European country.
However there are more regiments in other domains, from special ops to paratroopers to highly mobile (with helos integrated into the regiment) to heavy regiments but relying on wheeled APCs and AIFVs and let me say it... tank destroyers
like our beloved Centauro 8x8 105mm Btw Spain bought it, the US Army tried it but no news since, and there are rumours of sales to Egypt
cheers
Ah, you are talking of the sad dark days of the german tank fleet.
As said before of the former active and non-active 83 btns only 6ns btns remain (There are rumours about one additional non.active btn).
The numbers postet here are all right.
What might be interesting is that the new IFV Puma is air lifting capable within a A400m but only in the A version. The extra armor to bring it up t C version protection has to be transported seperately.
A tank btn consists of 44 tanks and not 42.
And it is a shame that we do not even get all of our A5s to A6 standard.
Of all the Leopard II users Germany only operates the 4th modern version. (With Strv 122, Leopard IIE and Lepoard IIHEL being all more modern).
It is the face of the new transformation (Peacekeeping and fast mobile light infantry operations) and with not enough funding (compared to others we have a ridicilous defense budget) the heavy formations are the first to suffer due to their high operational costs and less worth for our current missions.
As said before of the former active and non-active 83 btns only 6ns btns remain (There are rumours about one additional non.active btn).
The numbers postet here are all right.
What might be interesting is that the new IFV Puma is air lifting capable within a A400m but only in the A version. The extra armor to bring it up t C version protection has to be transported seperately.
A tank btn consists of 44 tanks and not 42.
And it is a shame that we do not even get all of our A5s to A6 standard.
Of all the Leopard II users Germany only operates the 4th modern version. (With Strv 122, Leopard IIE and Lepoard IIHEL being all more modern).
It is the face of the new transformation (Peacekeeping and fast mobile light infantry operations) and with not enough funding (compared to others we have a ridicilous defense budget) the heavy formations are the first to suffer due to their high operational costs and less worth for our current missions.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
We did a tally some time ago on the "European Armour" thread.
Europe has ~3,000 Leo IIA5+/Challenger/Leclerc/Ariete in active service.
Quality over quantity.
It seem Germany is getting fully NCW and rapid deployable with with order of 140K of "computers" and 272 Boxer wheeled IFV
http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinvesting.aspx?type=bondsNews&storyID=2006-12-12T215437Z_01_L1265560_RTRIDST_0_GERMANY-DEFENCE-ORDERS.XML
you do see the irony in the fact that Poland has purchased Leo2's for her own forces...
she is selling off zero framed, refurbed models of her old russian kit and is buying german gear for herself.
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It's PT-91 and it's newly built. Poland received 128 Leopard 2A4 from German Army reserve stocks as military assistance and only paying for the transportation costs , as far as know they put the FCS of the leopard into pt-91 < can someone confirm all of theseyou do see the irony in the fact that Poland has purchased Leo2's for her own forces...
she is selling off zero framed, refurbed models of her old russian kit and is buying german gear for herself.
Its based on refurbed T-72'sIt's PT-91 and it's newly built. Poland received 128 Leopard 2A4 from German Army reserve stocks as military assistance and only paying for the transportation costs , as far as know they put the FCS of the leopard into pt-91 < can someone confirm all of these
Its using an 850hp engine (almost 50% smaller than a Leo2A6)
They do not use the Leo2 FCS
The Leo2A4 is a heavier tank and yet has better ground pressure
The Leo2A4 has a 33% greater power to weight ratio
The tank was also offerered as a low budget risk upgrade solution for T-72's for the Bosnians. It was seen as an ideal lower end MBT solution that could be funded by the US.
Waylander can no doubt provide extra info.
In addition, where is the logic in selling a "superior" tank and purchasing a less capable tank for your own forces?
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Bearing all the above in mind, the Malays are obviously happy with their choice and thats all that counts.
Personally speaking, I'm still cranky that Australia passed up a German offer of Leo2A4's for M1's some time ago - IMV, the Leo2 is the superior tank.
However the mods added to the aussie M1's do make a substantial difference as far as sensor fusion into the rest of the battlegear (land and air) if ever needed.
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my bad on the FCS , it's using savan-15 FCS from france.
Maybe the reason for the leopard
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4104
post 15
, it's using savan-15 FCS from france.Maybe the reason for the leopard
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4104
post 15