F16I - Was a good deal? JDW

[Patzek]

( its myabe old but still intresting )


JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - FEBRUARY 18, 2004

Radar concerns cast shadow over F-16I buy
ALON BEN-DAVID JDW Correspondent
Tel Aviv

The Israel Air Force (IAF) is "highly dissatisfied" with theNorthropGrumman AN/APG-68(V)9 radar installed in its new F-16Imultirolefighters, according to senior Israeli defence sources.

With the first of 102 Lockheed Martin F-16Is scheduled to arriveinIsrael on 19 February, a growing number of defence officials arenowcriticising the procurement.

JDW has learned that following a series of test flights atLockheedMartin's facility in Fort Worth, Texas, IAF pilots assessedthesynthetic-aperture radar (SAR) mode of the AN/APG-68(V)9 to be"belowIAF operational standards".

Israel's former minister of defence, Moshe Arens, who negotiatedtheF-16I deal, told JDW he is not surprised to learn about theradar'sperformance problems. "Our intention was to install Israeli-maderadarin the F-16Is, but the US government made the whole saleconditional onthe purchase of US-made radar. I argued that [IsraelAircraftIndustries' subsidiary] Elta's radar had a proven betterperformanceand lesser cost than the US radars, but the Americanswereunrelenting," Arens said.

The Israel Defence Force (IDF) spokesperson's office declined tocommenton the matter, and a spokesperson for Lockheed Martin said that"theissue is between the Israeli and the US governments".

Senior IAF officers have recently met with both Lockheed MartinandNorthrop Grumman executives and presented them with what theydescribedas "performance problems of the radar". IAF sources said that"once theaircraft arrive in Israel, further tests will be conductedinco-ordination with the manufacturer".

However, according to a Northrop Grumman spokesman, the company hostedaSAR "summit" for all key principals in January 2004, at theUSgovernment's request, to evaluate the radar's performance. At theendof that session, the parties agreed that the radar had met allitsperformance specifications, that the development phase wascompletedand that the IAF should now evaluate the radar in its ownenvironment.

IAF sources said that in 1999 the service's preferred option wasforLockheed Martin's F-16I over Boeing's F-15I - partly because anofferto purchase two batches of 50 aircraft had significantly loweredtheprice per unit. However, the $4.4 billion F-16I deal,Israel'slargest-ever single procurement, is now under increasingscrutiny byboth former and current defence officials.

"I don't think we should have decided in 1999 on fighters we willstillbe receiving in 2008," said Brig Gen Eival Giladi, who untillastDecember was head of strategic planning for the IDF. "I am notworriedabout their technology, but I'm not sure that what we will needin 2008are fighters. We should have opted for the smaller [F-15] deal.Eventhough we would have lost the considerable discount, we wouldhavegained much more freedom to decide later on the structure of ourairforce."

Arens, who supported the F-16I deal at the time, said: "Inperspective,it could be that we were a little hasty. Considering thestrategicchanges in the region, I am not sure we should have made thatdeal."

While IAF Commander Maj Gen Dan Halutz (now IDF Deputy Chief ofStaffelect) maintained that the F16I procurement "was the rightdecisionthen and still is today", other senior officers are questioningthedecision, which committed a large part of US Foreign MilitaryFinancing(FMF) to Israel for almost a decade.

The IDF's budget was drastically reduced in the last two years, making the FMF the only available funds for new procurements.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon recently added NIS1 billion($224.2million) to the 2004 defence budget, totalling NIS33.4 billion,andpledged an additional NIS1.6 billion in 2005.


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Personnaly, i thing buying 102 F16I's was very stupid idea.
I think it was a mistake, to surrender to the US and buy those F16I's, and we should've buy something like 50 F15I's, and get more quality.

​

 

[knightrider4]

Many decisions made in haste have been regretted.

 

[ajay_ijn]

Personnaly, i thing buying 102 F16I's was very stupid idea.
I think it was a mistake, to surrender to the US and buy those F16I's, and we should've buy something like 50 F15I's, and get more quality.

Israeli has developed El\L-2052 AESA Radar,currently undergoing tests.But US is not allowing the israeli radar to be installed on F-16I.
The radar was unveiled at Aero India 2005 is suitable for wide range of platforms including russian migs and sukhois which primarily developed for export purpose.
It is said to have have capability of tracking 64 targets simultaneously.

 

[highsea]

Ajay- The EL/M 2052 is a large radar, AFAIK it is intended to compete in the Flanker market. I don't think it will fit in an F-16. The smaller EL/M 2032 might, as it's intended for MiG-29's and Mirages.

There are some comments I would like to make about this article, but they are rather pithy, and I think I will just leave it at this for now.

 

[aaaditya]

well here is an article on it .this radar is available in weight categories of 150-250kgs so i think it will be suitable for small aircrafts as lca.



<SPAN class=hdr1>Off the shelf </FONT>
First Israeli-designed AESA radar introduced for fighter makeovers


By Barbara Opall-Rome
May 09, 2005



<FONT class=story>

Israel’s Elta Systems Ltd. is planning a maiden flight test of its new EL/M 2052 active phased-array fire control radar, which is aimed at the international fighter aircraft upgrade market.

The multimode radar, unveiled publicly at the Aero India exhibition in Bangalore earlier this year, synthesizes synthetic aperture radar (SAR) and phased-array radar capabilities developed for larger reconnaissance platforms or pods into a single system small enough to be packed in the nose of fighter jets.

Based on solid-state active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar technology, the EL/M 2052 is designed to operate in air-to-air, precision ground strike and air-to-sea modes at the same time, with each mode optimized to find and track multiple targets with exceedingly high resolution. According to specifications released by the company, the radar will weigh 130 to 180 kilograms (286 to 396 pounds) and operate on four to 10 kilovolt amperes of power, depending on antenna size. on error resume next plugin = ( IsObject(CreateObject("ShockwaveFlash.ShockwaveFlash.3")))if ( plugin

 

[aaaditya]

well somehow rest of the topic got erased posting it here.
http://www.isrjournal.com/story.php?F=757135


In the air-to-air role, the radar is designed to detect, track and target multiple aircraft, unmanned aerial vehicles or low-flying targets such as helicopters. At sea, the radar is designed to search, classify and track targets, while also performing maritime patrol and surveillance functions. And, in the air-to-ground role, the radar exploits SAR technology to sort through clutter and other terrain-obscuring elements to identify and track ground objects on the move, according to company marketing data.

“This radar introduces new dimensions to air superiority and advanced strike missions. It’s a real breakthrough because of all the different types of targets and missions that can be handled at the same time,†Elta President Israel Livnat told C4ISR Journal.

In an early March interview, Livnat said Elta had invested a
significant amount of independent research and development funds on technologies incorporated in the new radar. The company is now testing the system on the ground and subsequently will test it on a Boeing 737.​

“We’ve done a lot of ground tests and field checks, and will soon begin flying the radar in our 737 test bed. At the same time, we’re examining a derivative of this X-band technology for different types of ground applications,†Livnat said.

[size=-2]NOT ON U.S. FIGHTERS [/size]

As for potential customers of the new radar, industry officials acknowledged that U.S. government restrictions prevent Elta or its parent company, Israel Aircraft Industries Ltd., from integrating the new radar in U.S. F-16 and F-15 fighters flown by the Israel Air Force. Similarly, the planned U.S. F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is not a candidate for the EL/M 2052, since the Pentagon is insisting that only a home-grown U.S. radar will be offered with the new aircraft​

Livnat said Elta’s principal focus for the EL/M 2052 is the international fighter upgrade market. He noted that preliminary market forecasts indicate that hundreds of fighter platforms could be made available for significant upgrades over the next 10 years.

However, Livnat emphasized that Elta is just now beginning to market the new radar, and therefore has no specific customer nation or fighter aircraft within its grasp.

“We don’t want to rule out any platform, since we have experience in adapting our radars to many different platforms. It all depends on the countries that may choose to upgrade existing fleets for the air superiority and advanced strike role instead of purchasing new aircraft,†he said.

When asked about the new Elta radar, a senior executive from Lockheed Martin, prime contractor for the F-16 as well as the planned F-35, insisted that Elta would not be able to offer the EL/M 2052 on any American aircraft without the express approval of U.S. airframe manufacturers and the U.S. government.

Interviewed during a visit to Israel on March 28, the Lockheed Martin executive said: “The Israelis can’t add a radar to their own F-16s or any F-16s on the market, for that matter, without permission from Lockheed Martin and the U.S. government. Without approval to provide the software interface, those aircraft cannot be supported … and I seriously doubt that there will be a change in U.S. policy regarding software source codes anytime in the foreseeable future.†•

:coffee :coffee :coffee
​

 

[ajay_ijn]

JDW has learned that following a series of test flights atLockheedMartin's facility in Fort Worth, Texas, IAF pilots assessedthesynthetic-aperture radar (SAR) mode of the AN/APG-68(V)9 to be"belowIAF operational standards".

I didn't understand one thing.
First F-16I must will be extensively evaluated by Israel and only then they must sign the deal.
But here after paying for F-16,they tested the F-16 and its radar???

 

[highsea]

About the radar- I expect that the 2032 is a 2052 with a smaller antenna. I was going by the pics and description of the 2052 from the India Air Show- that version would definitely not fit in the nosecone of an F-16.

I've seen SAR imaging from the APG-68. It's very detailed. Regardless, the APG-68 (v9) has received software updates since this article was written, and I'm pretty sure that any issues have been resolved. The SAR segment was brand new in Feb 2004, and there haven't been any complaints from other users.

 

[Patzek]

someone locked the topic so i couldn't posting earlier...

Yes, we wanted to put our Radar in the F16I's but the US said no, so we don't argue, whatever uncal sam saying, we should do it, even if its not for the best.
And the radar was fit to the AC.

About the payment of the AC, I'm really don't know, i thought we payed 4+ billion dollars for those AC's, if i'm wrong, correct me.