F-22 Operational Tests

[highsea]

This is a little old, but there was a discussion about this a few threads back, about the Raptor taking out 4 F-15's in an "unreported" combat simulation.

This has been on the AF website for a few weeks now, so forgive me if you've seen this, but here is the "reported" version.

5/17/2004 - ANDREWS AIR FORCE BASE, Md. -- Air Force senior leaders took advantage of an open house here to tell reporters and visitors about the service’s newest fighters, the F/A-22 Raptor and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

Secretary of the Air Force Dr. James G. Roche held a press conference before a static display of both aircraft May 14 following opening ceremonies of the three-day Joint Service Open House.

“We’re way ahead of where people expected us to be,†Secretary Roche said of the Raptor’s initial operational test evaluation trials.

The secretary used the results of a recent combat simulation to describe the Raptor’s capabilities.

“We had five F-15 Eagles against one Raptor,†he said. “The engagement was over in three minutes. None of the F-15s even saw the Raptor. The Raptor simply went down the line and, in simulation, took out all five of the F-15s.â€

One reporter asked if the simulations were fair, since the F/A-22 pilots had previously flown the F-15.

“They never get into dogfights, so it makes no difference,†Secretary Roche said. “The fact that (the Raptor) flies very high, very stealthy and at (Mach 1.6) without afterburner makes it very tough for anybody else to have a fire control solution. The F-15s, with very good radars, were not able to pick up and understand where the F/A-22s were, and the F/A-22 was looking at the F-15s all the time.â€

Air Force Vice Chief of Staff Gen. T. Michael Moseley explained the situation further.

“Real combat is an interactive event,†he said. “You’re not looking for a fair fight; you’re looking for the game to be called in the second inning, not having to play out all nine innings.â€

Secretary Roche also addressed recent reports that some members of Congress are considering cutting funding for research and development programs.

“The cost (for the F/A-22) is coming down,†he said. “In fact, a year ago Dr. Marvin R. Sambur (assistant secretary of the Air Force for acquisition) was able to negotiate 21 planes for the price of 20.â€

Secretary Roche said that Raptors now cost less than $150 million per copy. The price tag should come down even further as the program continues to stabilize, he said.

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123007733

Damn! $150 Mil a copy! Anyone want to buy some planes? : :

-CM

 

[webmaster]

Amazing! Good find highsea.

 

[adsH]

150 is the price tag for the USAF and probably the very very very close allies, i doubt they would keep it at that for anyone else. and plus this Per unit price tag is the initial cost, i can't imagine what the (stealth feature) storage, maintenance and the other logistical needs would cost.

 

[The Watcher]

any fighter come close to this? eurofighter, how does it do against the raptor?

 

[Aussie Digger]

Not very well I'm afraid... The F-22 is a generational leap beyond anything else flying at present...

 

[adsH]

Not very well I'm afraid... The F-22 is a generational leap beyond anything else flying at present...

wow wow wow!! hold onnn Aussie D, wasn't the Raptor 5th gen and the typhoon 4.5, got to give it credit for being what it is. and there is no stealth (or very litle of it) in Typhoons, that could one of the point the raptor would have advantage onn. but tech wise the Typhoon and the Raptor might not be too far apart.

after all they're only a mere .5 gen apart!!

 

[Pathfinder-X]

150 mil a piece is a huge burden on U.S airfore, in recent years they've already lowered the number of fighters they would order. I'm guessing they would induct no more than 200 of these.

As for what AD said, it's true that the Raptor is lot more capable than any other platform in service or test. Some might argue that Russian S-37 could match F-22, but remember that the Russian's wallet empty and the program is stranded of cash. Since 2002, the S-37 barely flied. And eventhough Raptor is the most capable, it probably isn't the best. For the price tag is a pain in the ass.

 

[Gremlin29]

SU-37 a match for the Raptor, are you serious? The Su 37 is an upgraded platform that's as old as the F-15! The F-22 ushers in an entirely new dimension to air superiority, one in which there is no competition in the immediate future. The proof will be in the pudding, but I'll wager the F-22 will require 1/3 of the maintenance time that the F-15 requires, that alone offsets costs and reduces the necessary fleet size.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

Gremlin, S-37 and Su-37 is completely two different platform. Soviets activated the S-37 program to counter the American YF-22 in the 1980's. While Su-37 is a vastly improved version of Flanker.

Su-37

S-37

Oh btw, I made a small mistake in my last post. The development of S-37 has stopped for a while now, it's technology is currently being used in PAK-FA program, which is similar to U.S JSF.

 

[Gremlin29]

Gotcha, my bad.

I would point out that the F-22 has embedded stealth ie the physical shape of the airframe, materials, coatings as well as electronic sweet and so forth. In essence, it's an F-15 tucked into an F-117, and a whole lot more. So I would definately put it in it's own classification of air superiority ship in which there are no other seriously viable contenders. I would support Aussie Digger's statement that it is a full generation ahead of anything else on the planet. How would it fare against the S-37 in a "dogfight" I haven't a clue but I'd bet a 5 spot that the F-22 would swat the S-37 down before the engagement developed into a fur ball. I think something to consider is that the US toyed with the X-29 back in the late 70's which was an F-5 (or F-20) with a forward swept wing, no horizontal stabilizer (or stabilator) and thrust vectoring. The ship showed great promise in the aerial maneuver department but eventually the whole platform layout was abandoned, probably for good reason. I guess the real bottom line is that the best 1vs1 ship is a moot point in todays modern air force (US), as air to air engagements ocurr over such great distances.

I will say this much, the Russians always built niffty looking aircraft, wether they be fighters or helicopters, especially the stuff that petered out due to lack of financial resources.

 

[Aussie Digger]

I stand by my comments ADSH. I'm happy to accede to the .5 Gen thing, but then someone else came up with that idea, not me. I simply repeated it here. The F-22 from everything i've read with it's combined Stealth, Supercruise, Zero Electronic emissions and advanced data fusion and upcoming weapon systems, will simply "wipe the floor" with any other fighter jet over the coming decades. I DO rate the Typhoon as the best "of the rest" (until JSF comes along anyway...)

 

[adsH]

i totally agree with yeah, overall Raptor is far more-superior.

 

[highsea]

150 mil a piece is a huge burden on U.S airfore, in recent years they've already lowered the number of fighters they would order. I'm guessing they would induct no more than 200 of these.

Last I heard, the AF had agreed to cut back from 339 to 295 units, and I think that is where it sits right now. The dollars are basically set for the program. As the price goes up, the # of AC goes down.

As AD pointed out, maintenance costs, at least on major subsystems will be much lower. Everything was designed with upgrades in mind. Possibly the most expensive part to maintain will be the skin of the AC, with it's exotic coatings, etc.

But prices could come down over time, especially if the RAF or RAAF decided they wanted to buy a few.

-CM