European light armoured vehicle procrument

[peterAustralia]

hi all,

I was reading the newspaper, I think it was the Age yesterday and there was an article about the British wanting to get a new light armored vehicle. Something on the lines of .. tanks are really great but they are heavy to airlift and tend to upset the locals where they are deployed, as the travel about narrow alleys etc.

The main point of the article (sorry I cannot recall exactly where i read it, could have been here) was that there are 16 projects for light armored vehicles in Europe at the moment as opposed to only 3 in the US. The end result is that these projects cost more and take longer than is necessary. The article seemed to advocate going with commercially available vehicles, in the British case some fellow recommended a French vehicle, and was later overruled in favour of a yet to be determined British vehicle.

I am sure that a purpose designed vehicle would be slightly better but the article said that such a vehicle would cost more and take longer to get into service.

My thoughts are kinda like, if the British buy a French vehicle and the French buy a British missile, wouldn't everybody do well.

comments anyone

peter

 

[kato]

I'd love a list of those 16 development projects. Because i don't get 16, in Europe outside the CIS anyway.

Latest from each company in wheeled vehicles:

Introduced:
Steyr: Pandur II
Patria: AMV
Fiat/Iveco: Centauro VBM Freccia
Future introduction:
KMW: Boxer/MRAV
Nexter: VBCI VCI

Piranha IV/V has no buyers in Europe, SEP is cancelled.

Competing models are only AMV vs Pandur II (Croatia, Macedonia, pot. Czech Republic) and Boxer vs VBCI vs Piranha V (UK) at the moment.

None of the vehicles for FRES is "British" btw.

 

[swerve]

I'd love a list of those 16 development projects. Because i don't get 16, in Europe outside the CIS anyway.

Latest from each company in wheeled vehicles:

Introduced:
Steyr: Pandur II
Patria: AMV
Fiat/Iveco: Centauro VBM Freccia
Future introduction:
KMW: Boxer/MRAV
Nexter: VBCI VCI

Piranha IV/V has no buyers in Europe, SEP is cancelled.

Competing models are only AMV vs Pandur II (Croatia, Macedonia, pot. Czech Republic) and Boxer vs VBCI vs Piranha V (UK) at the moment.

None of the vehicles for FRES is "British" btw.

You might get 16 if you included all the lightly armoured stuff, like the Duro, Mungo, armoured Pinzgauer trucks, etc, & any older vehicles still in production (VBL?). And it depends on what you call "light". Anything less than an MBT? In which case you can add Puma & 3 other IFVs in production. But if you count all the miscellaneous really light vehicles, then the US count goes up sharply. And what about FCS? How many armoured vehicle projects is that? One? Or about 8?

I don't doubt that there are more types of AFV being built & developed in Europe than the USA, but to obtain a ratio of over 5:1 one has to use a broader definition in Europe than in the USA.

 

[Waylander]

3 IFVs in production + the Puma?
I've got a blackout. I can just remember the Ulan/Pizarro and CV90. Warrior is out of production right? AMX-10P is also not in production anymore.

Do you mean the Dardo? IIRC correctly procurement of it is finished but other specialised vehicles based on it's chassis are going to come out of the factory.

 

[kato]

ELBO Kentaurus AIFV for Greece? Officially ordered, but fate uncertain.

 

[kato]

You might get 16 if you included all the lightly armoured stuff, like the Duro, Mungo, armoured Pinzgauer trucks, etc, & any older vehicles still in production (VBL?)..

Total armoured vehicle systems under development / about to enter production just for Germany:

Under development:
GFF (4 vehicles)
GTF (5 vehicles)
About to enter production:
Puma
Boxer
Armored stuff in production for the Bundeswehr:
Mungo ESK
Dingo 2
Bv-206S (2 variants)
Fennek (base model in production, JFST to enter)
Yak / Duro IIIP (base model)
Multi 2 FSA (if you want to count it)
Wiesel 2 (4 variants in production, Mortar variant to enter)

 

[buglerbilly]

There are not only three light armoured vehicle projects in the USA.

MRAP by itself has four phases/categories and procures vehicles from at least 4-5 manufacturers:-
CAIMAN x two models
RG-31
RG-33 x two models
Cougar x two/three models
Buffalo (2/3 models?)
MaxxPro's x two models

TEXTRON's M1117 Guardian ASV is stand-alone more or less but no longer involved with MRAP.

JLTV currently in its development phase, is looking at at least three manufacturers prototypes.

STRYKER is a another category and then there are USMC programmes that include vehicles from BAE for JERVV and other programmes involving various vehicles for EOD and Escort duties. The USMC has also recently (last year) ordered more LAV II's from GDLS.

None of this includes various and widespread Up-armouring programmes for Hummer, FMTV, HEMMT, etc etc.

That's FAR more than three programmes...........

 

[winnyfield]

Warrior is out of production right?

Correct. The UK is persisting with the Warrior but it'd be getting some upgrades - new cannon the core project.

Compared to aircraft and IT projects, land vehicles are relatively simple and cheap.

See this for listings of proposed vehicles:
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/

 

[Navor86]

. The USMC has also recently (last year) ordered more LAV II's from GDLS.

Can you provide Sources or Numbers,please?

 

[buglerbilly]

$317M to General Dynamics for LAV-A2 Vehicles & Turrets

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...ized/index.php

Posted 09-Oct-2006 07:23 | Permanent Link
Related stories: Americas - Other, Americas - USA, Contracts - Awards, Contracts - Modifications, Delivery & Task Orders, Forces - Marines, General Dynamics, Tanks & Mechanized

General Dynamics Land Systems in Sterling Heights, MI has finally received awards for all phases of a contract for new eight-wheeled LAV-A2 vehicles in armored personnel (LAV-PC), anti-tank (LAV-AT), command & control (LAV-C2), logistics (LAV-L), and mortar (presumably LAV-EFSS) variants for the U.S. Marine Corps.

It was late 2006 not 2007 but if you go to GDLS website you should be able to see it there. I've no idea how the numbers break down thru' the various models.

The existing LAV's are being brought up to the standard of the latest new-builds.

 

[Navor86]

In February 2006, General Dynamics was awarded a contract by Marine Corps Systems Command to produce 157 LAV-A2s in six different variants. Variants include LAV-25, anti-tank, command & control, logistics, mortar and NBCRS.

Does this mean 157 brand new LAV A2 or just 157 A1 brought to A2 Standard?

 

[swerve]

3 IFVs in production + the Puma?
I've got a blackout. I can just remember the Ulan/Pizarro and CV90. Warrior is out of production right? AMX-10P is also not in production anymore.

Do you mean the Dardo? IIRC correctly procurement of it is finished but other specialised vehicles based on it's chassis are going to come out of the factory.

Yes, I meant the Dardo. But as you say, production status is debatable.

 

[swerve]

Total armoured vehicle systems under development / about to enter production just for Germany:

Under development:
GFF (4 vehicles)
GTF (5 vehicles)
About to enter production:
Puma
Boxer
Armored stuff in production for the Bundeswehr:
Mungo ESK
Dingo 2
Bv-206S (2 variants)
Fennek (base model in production, JFST to enter)
Yak / Duro IIIP (base model)
Multi 2 FSA (if you want to count it)
Wiesel 2 (4 variants in production, Mortar variant to enter)

And with that list you nicely demonstrate the problem. It includes lightly-armoured vehicles for cargo & troops, up to a heavily-armoured tracked IFV, vehicles which have beenl in production for years & vehicles under development. A similar list for the USA would be even longer. And almost everyones list includes vehicles from other countries, e.g. the Bv-206 here, & the RG-31 & Stryker in the USA.

I can't derive 16 vs 3 however I do it.

 

[buglerbilly]

Does this mean 157 brand new LAV A2 or just 157 A1 brought to A2 Standard?

In early February 2006 the USMC awarded General Dynamics Land Systems a $257 million contract for 130 LAV-A2 armored vehicles with an option worth $50 for electric turret drives. These vehicles were to be delivered as personnel carrier, anti-tank, command and control (C2), logistic and mortar carrier variants. Vehicle deliveries were scheduled to start in July 2007 and conclude by July 2008. Light Armored Vehicle A2 is an improved variant of LAV featuring improved suspension, armor, and an automatic fire suppression system.

In October 2006, the US Marine Corps awarded a $189 million contract to General Dynamics Land Systems for the production of 151 LAV-A2 light armored vehicles and a $50 million option for 394 LAV-A2 electric turret drives. This contract modified the contract awarded in February 2006 for LAV-A2s. The resulting contract is worth $317 million with deliveries complete December 2008.

What this means is that these are new-build vehicles BUT they are also upgrading to the same standard the older vehicles - the turret order mentioned above above is to replace the existing electro-hydraulic/hydraulic turrets with the safer electric-drive turrets. There are various other upgrades to existing vehicles including thermal imaging sights, add-on armour and spall liners I believe.

The new-build vehicles have these as=delivered.