Enrica Lexie incident

[AlfaSigma]

Two Italian military personnel have been arrested and are being detained in India over allegedly killing two Indian fishermen.
The events took place on Wednesday 15 February. The two soldiers were part of a detail of six embarked on anti-pirates protection service on board the Italian oil tanker Enrica Lexie.

According to Italian sources at 16.00, while navigating 33 miles off the Indian coast, position confirmed by satellite tracking, a twelve meters boat with six armed men was spotted approaching the Italian tanker. It kept nearing even after the soldiers showed their guns at which point they opened fire in the air and in the water and the boat turned away without any one being hit. The incident was over by 17.00 and the events were immediately reported to Rome in the terms described.

According to Indian sources a fishing boat, the St. Antony, carrying 11 unarmed crew reported being fired upon at 21:50 and 2 miles off the coast with the shooting having just happened. Of the eleven crewmen 9 were sleeping and the two awake were shot.

On the same night the Enrica Lexie was tricked into coming to port by a message from the Coast Guard reporting they were holding a boat with arms on board, prospecting it could have been the one involved in the incident of the afternoon and inviting them to give statements. The Italian ship complied against the advice from the Italian Navy HQ.

The different accounts beg the question of whether there are any witnesses and whether it was the same boat at all.
The boat described by the Italian guards was different from the St. Antony.

In the meantime with six days having passed no autopsy has been carried out nor has the trajectory of the shots been established not to speak of any ballistics examinations. The Indian authorities also refused to show the victims' bodies to the Italians.

Most likely it is two different and unconnected incidents.
Another possibility is that the entire thing was a set up; the boat with the armed men creates the victimless incident while a nearby fishing boat is attacked killing all witnesses (at least the ones who were awake).
The Italian account, being relative to an incident similar in its premises but more benign in its outcome and more favorable, will sound like a weak and false justification for the first. And in fact it has been so interpreted by Indian officials who quickly, very quickly, dismissed it. On board the Enrica Lexie a number of crewmen are Indians which could, in principle, have facilitated such a set up.

In the media the two stories get mixed up and presented as indicated playing on the populist anti colonialist sentiment. The local media is serving the story as a straight up voluntary shooting by the Italians; no mention is made of the irreconcilable discrepancies.

Additionally it seems that a Greek merchant vessel, the Olympic Flair, at anchor two miles off the coast and much nearer to the St. Antony reported at 22.00 an attempted assault. This is being denied in India but hopefully at least the ship's position in time should be ascertainable via satellite tracking.
If confirmed the shooting could have taken place around that.

As for the law, it assigns jurisdiction to the Italians since the alleged incident happened in international waters on board an Italian flagged ship. Additionally militaries fall under the jurisdiction of their own countries making the arrest doubly illegal.

The Italian Government handling of the matter appears to leave a lot to be desired as they appear to be conceding to the Indian reconstruction of the events to focus solely on the legal aspect.

 

[David Cheraman]

Misleading statements in the above post

You are wrong on several counts here.

On the same night the Enrica Lexie was tricked into coming to port by a message from the Coast Guard reporting they were holding a boat with arms on board, prospecting it could have been the one involved in the incident of the afternoon and inviting them to give statements. The Italian ship complied against the advice from the Italian Navy HQ. Tricked into? They had reported to the Italian Embassy that they had killed two pirates! It was the Embassy which asked them to cooperate with coat guards and come to Cochin. Italian ship cannot runway without damaging the Indo-Italian relationship.

The boat described by the Italian guards was different from the St. Antony.
Italian Deputy Foreign Minister Steffan de Mistura has admittde the mistake in New Delhi now.

In the meantime with six days having passed no autopsy has been carried out nor has the trajectory of the shots been established not to speak of any ballistics examinations. The Indian authorities also refused to show the victims' bodies to the Italians. not true. Italian ship is refusing to provide the gun.

Most likely it is two different and unconnected incidents.
That is not true. The ill fated members of teh boat had eyes to see the Italian Ship. The boat ran away from the scene after seeing two have been shot.

There would not have been any ambiguity if the Italians had been straightforward from the beginning. If it was a mistake then that should have been communicated first. Instead,
1) The ship tried to escape without reporting any pirate or shooting incident to Indian Coast Guards
2)The Embassy initially said that the ship had shot and killed TWO PIRATES!
3) Then changed the stand to 'mistaken as pirates'
4) Then changed the stand to where it happened etc. International waters? Jurisdiction etc Does it matter? Can someone come and kill a pleasure boat people in the Atlantic Ocean or Mediterranean and claim it is in International waters?
5)Italian foreign minister Giulio Terzi had called and talked to the Indian counterpart. But then after the arrest he unilaterally went to the press and gave misleading information and even commented on Kerala bye-election from Rome! What a protocoll? Can you think of Hillary Clinton commenting on an irrelevant local election in Kerla?

 

[alphaomega]

A cooler appraisal

Before jumping to any conclusions, facts need to be established.

As per press reports, autopsies were performed. As far as ballistics, the Italians are yet to hand over the suspect weapons and are resisting all efforts of the Indian police to proceed with the investigations.

The Italians admit to firing their guns. But they never reported the incidence and did not follow the 'anti-piracy' protocols. Little attention is paid to this 'cowboy' attitude and total disregard for accepted norms to be followed by armed guards on merchant ships when subject to suspected pirate attack.

The position of ship at the time of incidence is immaterial. Just as Italy has their laws, India also has its laws well codified. Italian Minister claimed that the Italian extra-territorial law should prevail. India has already said its laws also have a similar provision in case an Indian or an Indian vessel is attacked. In this case Indians were killed and Indian vessel was fired upon.

Italy is trying to make it into a diplomatic case. It is a pure and simple criminal case, that should be allowed to proceed in Indian courts of law.

As far as conspiracy theories and other boats etc......will all be cleared in due course.

 

[Todjaeger]

Before jumping to any conclusions, facts need to be established.

Agreed.

As per press reports, autopsies were performed. As far as ballistics, the Italians are yet to hand over the suspect weapons and are resisting all efforts of the Indian police to proceed with the investigations.

There is a very real question of who has jurisdiction, and therefore who could/should investigate and then taken proper legal actions. See below for more.

The Italians admit to firing their guns. But they never reported the incidence and did not follow the 'anti-piracy' protocols. Little attention is paid to this 'cowboy' attitude and total disregard for accepted norms to be followed by armed guards on merchant ships when subject to suspected pirate attack.

Keeping in mind not 'jumping to conclusions' one should not just assume what the ROE the Italian Marines were supposed to be abiding by, or whether they did or did not follow them. Also, as it has been reported in various new sources, the Italian personnel arrested were not armed guards, but Marines and therefore part of the Italian military which adds complications to the situation.

The position of ship at the time of incidence is immaterial. Just as Italy has their laws, India also has its laws well codified. Italian Minister claimed that the Italian extra-territorial law should prevail. India has already said its laws also have a similar provision in case an Indian or an Indian vessel is attacked. In this case Indians were killed and Indian vessel was fired upon.

No, the position or location of the ship at the time of the incident is very much material. The territorial or home waters of a nation as recognized internationally by the UNCLOS c. 1982 is 12 n miles. If the incident occurred within 12 n miles, then India would have legal authority to detain, investigate and take such legal action as allowed by Indian law. OTOH if the Italian vessel was further from the coast of India than that, then it was in international waters and India could potentially be violating treaties by detaining the Italian Marines and/or charging and trying them for a crime. As reported here in an Indian paper, the incident occurred:

about 14 nautical miles off Alappuzha

That comment above from the Times of India suggests rather strongly that the incident occurred in international waters.

Italy is trying to make it into a diplomatic case. It is a pure and simple criminal case, that should be allowed to proceed in Indian courts of law.

By its very nature, if one nation is detaining military personnel from another nation for a possible crime, that is a diplomatic issue. Further, unless the incident occurred within Indian territorial waters, the situation is not a pure or simple criminal case. Similarly, if the incident occurred within international waters, then the Law of the Sea and not Indian law should be followed.

While we do not know the exact position of the vessels at the time of the incident, one should not automatically assume that the Indian legal system is the appropriate venue, or that Italy should not undertake diplomatic efforts to ensure its citizens and military personnel are receiving fair and legal treatment.

-Cheers

 

[AlfaSigma]

It's not about me being right or wrong on the reconstruction. I based on Italian and Indian newspapers from the Internet.
There have been new developments since and I'll put down a revised version asap.

It is doubtful, and in any case hasn't been reported anywhere I saw, about the Embassy admitting fatalities in the Italian incident.
The Embassy has no right to ask or order a ship what to do. Normally it's the owner and in emergencies it's the Navy.
The Italian Navy was informed from immediately after the victimless incident and in the terms described.
The Indians weren't promptly informed perhaps because the Enrica Lexie didn't consider any help was necessary at the beginning of the incident and didn't bother to report it after because the incident concluded without victims.

One can't say the ship run away after the incident. It simply maintained its course because there was no reason to change it. The Navy telling the captain to keep the course and ignore the request to enter port could have been for whatever reason for example they knew it would only be a bureucratic hassle to C/Intelligence had alerted of a set up scheme in the works to damage relations between the two countries.

In any case had the Enrica Lexie crew killed without cause I doubt they would have entered territorial waters!

Thank you both

 

[AlfaSigma]

The Enrica Lexie incident.
Revised and updated recapitulation.
As of Wednesday February 22.

Two Italian military personnel are being detained in India accused of murder over allegedly killing two Indian fishermen.
The events took place on Wednesday 15 February off the coast of the South Western, Indian state of Kerala. The two soldiers were part of a detail of six naval infantry soldiers, embarked on anti-pirates protection service on board the Italian oil tanker Enrica Lexie en route from Singapore to Egypt with a crew of 34 of which 19 Indians.

According to Italian sources at 16.00, while navigating 33 miles off the Indian coast, position confirmed by satellite tracking, a twelve meters boat with six armed men (five according to some sources) was spotted approaching the Italian tanker. As it kept nearing the soldiers fired a series of warning shots when the boat was at 500m, at 300m and again at 100m, at that point the boat turned away without any one being hit. The marines took at least three photos, badly focused. The incident was over by 17.00 and the events were immediately reported to Rome in the terms described.

According to Indian sources a fishing boat, the St. Antony, carrying 11 unarmed crew reported being fired upon 2 miles off the coast (or 14nm?). Of the eleven crewmen nine were sleeping and the two awake were shot.
Indian media reported the incident at 21:50.

A St. Antony crew member recounts in an interview, of being woken by the sound of shots and seeing a ship 250-300m away. Did he establish the shots were coming from men on the ship? He immediately took the helm, told the others to lie down, and sailed full speed for 2nm before calling for help.

Later that day, the Indian authorities, having established there were four ships in the area, called all of them asking if they had been attacked. Of the four only the Enrica Lexie answered affirmatively.
Note that the fact that they were asking all ships implies that neither from the witness nor from any other source had they established the identity of the ship the St. Antony's witness recounted.

That night the Enrica Lexie was tricked into coming into the port of Kochi by a message from the Coast Guard reporting they were holding a boat with arms on board, prospecting it could have been the one involved in the attempted assault of the afternoon and inviting the crew to give statements in view of proceedings against them.
The Italian ship complied, against the advice from the Italian Navy HQ, promptly contacted since after the victimless incident. Once docked at Kochi, a few Italian crewmen (seven?) disembarked. At that point they were held by police.
Note that had the Enrica Lexie been involved in a shooting, fatal and without cause (against the St. Antony, as they are accused of), it seems unlikely they would have chosen to enter Indian territorial waters just as they wouldn't have responded affirmatively to the earlier request for confirmation of an attack in the area.

As things stand there isn't anything linking the Enrica Lexie to the St. Antony.
The boat described by the Italian guards was different from the St. Antony.

In the meantime with seven days having passed there is no news of any autopsies having been carried out nor of any forensic or ballistics examinations. No results made known. It is reported sixteen bullets were recovered. The Indian authorities are refusing to show the victims' bodies to the Italian delegation.
The Indian authorities intend to take the soldiers' weapons from the ship but apparently this hasn't yet happened.
Italians are posing conditions and practical considerations tied to ship having been moved.

Most likely it is two different and unconnected incidents.
It seems that a Greek flagged merchant vessel, the Olympic Flair, at anchor 2.5 miles off Kochi reported around 22.00 an aborted assault by 20 armed men aboard two boats. This is being denied in India but hopefully at least the ship's position in time should be ascertainable via satellite tracking.
If confirmed the shooting could have taken place around that or at least would indicate the presence of pirates in the area. The Olympic Flair, reportedly, looks similar to the Enrica Lexie. In the hours following the events described it entered the port of Kochi.

Another possibility is that the entire thing is a set up; the boat with armed men creates the victimless incident, while a nearby fishing boat is attacked killing the crew. The Italian account, being relative to an incident similar in its premises but more benign in its outcome and more favorable, will sound like a weak justification for the second. And in fact it has been so interpreted by Indian officials who very quickly dismissed it.
If it is a set up the objective would be either for India to score a diplomatic victory at the expense of Italy or to compromise the relations between the two countries (depending on who planned it)
This scenario is compatible with both versions.
One other thing. I was reading this interview with the commander of the San Marco naval infantry battalion about how it was practically impossible the mistaken shooting of fishermen, and how they practice hundreds of times and so on... when the following occurred to me.
The boat with armed men simulating the assault could serve an additional purpose: to procure actual bullets fired from the guns of the guards. For the last series of warning shots, fired in the water, the trajectory of the bullets would be predictable and circumscribed to a relatively small area relative to the boat and given the rules of engagement and the ships parameters. So the assaulting boat could have retrieved the bullets intercepting them underwater before they sank, if suitably equipped. Alternative methods to the same end could be conceivable.
In this case the bullets found at the crime scene would be switched with the ones recovered and, of course, they would match those from the guards guns. Aspects tied to the need or the feasibility of realistically reproducing on the recovered bullets any impact signs so as to make them indistinguishable from genuine ones are not known.
The Italian authorities have asked for strict measures to safeguard the chain of custody of the guns. Under the scenario mentioned that measure would backfire portentously (!!)
A situation in which doing what any innocent would do leads to nailing the suspects to the crime falsely.

In the media the two stories (victimless attempted assault and fishermen shot) get mixed up and presented as indicated playing on the populist anti colonialist sentiment. The local media is serving the story as a straight up voluntary shooting by the Italians and the bodies have been shown amply on Indian media fomenting outrage.
No mention is made of the irreconcilable discrepancies and of the unjustified assumptions.

International law assigns jurisdiction to the Italians since the alleged incident happened in international waters (over 12nm off the coast) on board an Italian flagged ship. It is argued additionally that militaries fall under the jurisdiction of their own countries making the arrest doubly illegal.

The Italian Government handling of the matter appears to be giving priority to the legal aspects over the factual divergences and being prudent.

The Indian authorities contend the shooting happened in their territorial waters.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Closed for Moderation

Closed for Moderation

We're struggling to see what benefit this post is bringing.

Its rapidly shifting into political " he said she said" territory which profits no one and invites nationalistic defensiveness/offensiveness

If anyone thinks it should be re-opened then PM a Mod and provide a convincing argument that will then be subject to all the Mods input