Dutch Army

[IPA35]

First of all readers should know the current composition:

Royal Netherlands Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
We have 56 tanks split between those two battalions and 24 PzH2000's split between those two artillery units.

What I think that would be better is:

-Cut the ordered CV9035 numbers to about 60%.
These will equip the two battalions of the 13th brigade.
-The tank battalion of the 43th brigade will move to the 13th
-The number of active tanks shall be increased slowly to about a 120 in total (we still have around 123 2A6's).
-All PzH's should be handed over to the 13th brigade.
-More Boxers should be ordered with custom modules; APC/IFV, MGS, ATGM and a mortar variant.
These would equip the 43th brigade.
This brigade would be based on the Stryker combat teams but with the Boxer instead.
I still have to decide if a .50 or a 35mm would the best weapon of the standard APC/IFV's.
All three battalions should have their own internal MGS, AT and mortar units.
(Possibly the AMOS?)
It's artillery should be equipped with 24 M777's.
The Leopard 1 based engineerig vehicles should be retired and the Leopard 2 based vehicles should be moved to the 13th brigade, the 43th should recieve Boxer bases vehicles.

The 11th brigade should recieve 12 M777's to complement their 12 120mm mortars.

The NatRes should become a reserve ligt infantery brigade with vehicles like the Bushmaster and the (it is going to be widrawn form service) 6*6 Patria's and 24 M777's.

Prehaps a independent HIMARS unit is an option and prehaps all artillery units should shrink from 24 to 18 (and 12 to 6)?


Thoughts and alternative opinions???

 

[Todjaeger]

First of all readers should know the current composition:

Royal Netherlands Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
We have 56 tanks split between those two battalions and 24 PzH2000's split between those two artillery units.

What I think that would be better is:

-Cut the ordered CV9035 numbers to about 60%.
These will equip the two battalions of the 13th brigade.
-The tank battalion of the 43th brigade will move to the 13th
-The number of active tanks shall be increased slowly to about a 120 in total (we still have around 123 2A6's).
-All PzH's should be handed over to the 13th brigade.
-More Boxers should be ordered with custom modules; APC/IFV, MGS, ATGM and a mortar variant.
These would equip the 43th brigade.
This brigade would be based on the Stryker combat teams but with the Boxer instead.
I still have to decide if a .50 or a 35mm would the best weapon of the standard APC/IFV's.
All three battalions should have their own internal MGS, AT and mortar units.
(Possibly the AMOS?)
It's artillery should be equipped with 24 M777's.
The Leopard 1 based engineerig vehicles should be retired and the Leopard 2 based vehicles should be moved to the 13th brigade, the 43th should recieve Boxer bases vehicles.

The 11th brigade should recieve 12 M777's to complement their 12 120mm mortars.

The NatRes should become a reserve ligt infantery brigade with vehicles like the Bushmaster and the (it is going to be widrawn form service) 6*6 Patria's and 24 M777's.

Prehaps a independent HIMARS unit is an option and prehaps all artillery units should shrink from 24 to 18 (and 12 to 6)?


Thoughts and alternative opinions???

The first thing which comes to mind is the question, why make changes? Is there some particular capability that the Dutch army currently lacks? Is there an overabundance of capability which can be reduced to allow government funding of other areas? Is the change and reorganization of equipment intended to follow or lead to a change in doctrine?

Until more is understood about the desired objective, it can be difficult to make any suggestions on proposed changes.

Regarding the debate on a 0.50 cal. or 35mm gun for an APC/IFV, that question can be a bit easier to answer. If the vehicle is just to be used to transport troops onto/off of the battlefield, then a 0.50 cal. sub be sufficient. OTOH, if the vehicle is expected to stay and provide support for the disembarked troops, then something like a 35mm cannon would be more appropriate. That is really the difference though between an APC and IFV...

-Cheers

 

[battlensign]

As an Australian, I was always rather envious of the Post Cold War Regular Dutch Army in respect of what appeared to be a rather balanced force when considered as part of the picture of Dutch Forces as a whole ; 2 Mech Brigades, 1 Airmobile Brigade and then 2 Battalions of Marines with the Dutch Navy (with a range of specialisations). All of this from a country with 16.5 million people! Quite clearly though the Army was always a priority for Dutch defence and I note that in general, forces assisting exercise of Land power are the best equipped (although the Air Force did well to get the number of F-16s). Generally I would have to agree with Tod, in that unless we know why you are attempting to restructure it is impossible to be of any assistance in force structure options......

I do note though;

- The Dutch Army has acquired a significant number of Bushmasters (92?) which would speak to a percieved requirement for lighter protected vehicle in the MRAP-like range.
- The net effect of your changes would appear to be that the 13th Mechanised Brigade would become 13th Armoured Brigade and that 43rd Mechanised Brigade would become simply 43rd Brigade and would be short one Battalion if following the Stryker Brigade model (albeit with a vehicle more than 2 times heavier). Additionally the Dutch Army would now be operating 3 Different types of brigade (Light/Air Mobile, 'Motorised' and Armoured).
- That a cut of 60% of the ordered CV90s might be more than is necessary to simply remove those designed to equip the 44th and 45th Infantry Battalions.

Brett.

 

[IPA35]

We have fenneks.
The number of Bushmasters of in the 80's I believe.
A cut of 40%.
The main problem is a lack in tanks and artillery.
A few years ago we still had 120 tanks en 36 guns. Now only 56 and 24.

Now we could only fix those things but IMO it is not a bad idea to create a more light brigade.
Equipped with the Boxer. But I need suggestions of how this brigade would have like.

Preffered doctrine is more defence focussed, far fewer expeditions and cuts on the multinational stuff (Eurocorps and Dutch/German division for example).

 

[Todjaeger]

We have fenneks.
The number of Bushmasters of in the 80's I believe.
A cut of 40%.
The main problem is a lack in tanks and artillery.
A few years ago we still had 120 tanks en 36 guns. Now only 56 and 24.

Now we could only fix those things but IMO it is not a bad idea to create a more light brigade.
Equipped with the Boxer. But I need suggestions of how this brigade would have like.

Preffered doctrine is more defence focussed, far fewer expeditions and cuts on the multinational stuff (Eurocorps and Dutch/German division for example).

Okay, if one wishes to make the Dutch Army more defensive in nature, that certainly can be accomplished. It does lead into the questions of whom the aggressor(s) are, and is it going to be a forward defence?

Examples of what I mean are plentiful from the whole Cold War era (and it is sort of disturbing to realise that ended two decades ago... I'm starting to feel old:shudder). AFAIK at that time, the Dutch Army, and most of the rest of NATO for that matter, was primarily defence-oriented. The potential aggressors being the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact nations. Also the doctrine (for the Dutch and some others) was a forward defence, where the Soviet/Pact forces would be engaged in another country(ies), prior to them arriving in the Netherlands proper.

With the advances made in the ranges of modern weaponry and equipment, as well as the Netherlands lack of strategic depth, I would expect that any hostile force would need to be engaged before it reachs the Netherlands. Given that the discussion is currently specific to the Dutch Army, this means engaging a land force either operating within the borders of a fellow NATO member-state, or prior to the force invading another NATO member.

IMO this is one of the areas where having a force that is geared towards expeditionary warfare can be useful, since a force can (usually) be assembled for deployment away from the home/garrison base more easily.

As for having the Netherlands less involved in international or multi-national forces, that might well be counterproductive if the intent is to maintain the security of the Netherlands. Dutch participation in multi-/international forces, and/or alliances like NATO is all a part of collective defence. If one looks back at history over the last two hundred years, there have been a number of major multi-national wars upon the Continent. All of which have involved the Netherlands. Given the comparatively small population and land area of the Netherlands, as well as the terrain features which do not lend themselves to aiding defenders, the Netherlands would have difficulty achieving the needed troop levels to defend against a potentially hostile neighbor without outside assistance. Especially if the hostile neighbor is/was not already engaged with another nation. Hence, the need for collective defence.

Two questions, both related IPA35's last paragraph and my first paragraph. 1. What sort of force is the Dutch Army potentially defending against? 2. Where will these defensive operations be potentially be taking place? These sorts of questions need to be answered, as they are what help determine the type of tactical situation the Dutch Army could find itself in on a battlefield.

My first instinct though is that if the desire is for a purely defensive force, then having a light/lighter brigade is heading in the wrong. Light forces tend to be more mobile than heavy forces and can sometimes have similar levels of offensive power. The downsides as I see it from a Dutch POV are that light forces most often cannot take the level of return fire that a heavy unit can, and that with the relatively small land area of the Netherlands, combat would likely not become a war of maneuver.

-Cheers

 

[IPA35]

Because it wont not be a war of maneuver, one armoured brigade is enough.
A lighter brigade (also used for expeditionary warfare, although I oppose most recent missions) would be better suited to fight in Urban combat and other forms of defensive warfare. Or am I wrong?

Also the NatRes (reserves numbering about 3500) should become a light infantery brigade.
Some units at battalion or platoon level could recieve the Bushmasters currently used in A-stan and prehaps the Patria's.
Instead of: Royal Netherlands Army reserve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The will have their own artillery and Spike missles.

The Armoured brigade (2* tank battalions and 2* armoured infantery battalions) will provide the heavy firepower and will be the main fighting unit in wartime.

 

[Todjaeger]

Because it wont not be a war of maneuver, one armoured brigade is enough.
A lighter brigade (also used for expeditionary warfare, although I oppose most recent missions) would be better suited to fight in Urban combat and other forms of defensive warfare. Or am I wrong?

Also the NatRes (reserves numbering about 3500) should become a light infantery brigade.
Some units at battalion or platoon level could recieve the Bushmasters currently used in A-stan and prehaps the Patria's.
Instead of: Royal Netherlands Army reserve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The will have their own artillery and Spike missles.

The Armoured brigade (2* tank battalions and 2* armoured infantery battalions) will provide the heavy firepower and will be the main fighting unit in wartime.

It depends on ones point of view. Armoured and mechcanized forces have recently seen increased use in urban environments due to the level of protection available to their crew/passengers.

The who/where question still has not been answered though, and that is very important since that drives who the potential threat force is which determines what the Dutch Army would need to engage and delay/repel/defeat.

-Cheers

 

[IPA35]

That's hard to awnser.
For safety, I mean if we are so sure there will be no more wars in Europe we would abolish the entire military IMO.
But since we can't know we should have a reasonable military that is prepared for conventional warfare.

What would you suggest for more defensive warfare?

 

[IPA35]

*(This post is to fix the 'Last Post', it still read Todjeager.)

 

[StingrayOZ]

That's hard to awnser.
For safety, I mean if we are so sure there will be no more wars in Europe we would abolish the entire military IMO.
But since we can't know we should have a reasonable military that is prepared for conventional warfare.

What would you suggest for more defensive warfare?

I think the biggest threats will be in the dutch far flung colonies (current and past). The dutch need a force that isn't euopean fixed. Chavez seems to be making all sorts of threats to dutch interests, and if the Dutch cannot secure against threats then there will be more from elsewhere.

To that end you don't need 120 tanks rusting in europe to fight the russian tanks that are never comming.

But you do need tanks, even in "peacekeeping" roles, as mobile fortresses able to give a presence in hostile areas. To assist in entry and exits from territory.

Its interesting to compare Australian and Dutch forces, because they seem to be heading in the same direction from two different places. Tank numbers are simular, Dutch have it all over OZ in artillary but the Australians may go down a simular path. Navy is somewhat simular however Australia is definately up gunning in that department.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Because it wont not be a war of maneuver, one armoured brigade is enough.
A lighter brigade (also used for expeditionary warfare, although I oppose most recent missions) would be better suited to fight in Urban combat and other forms of defensive warfare. Or am I wrong?
.

Ask the Americans what happened in Somalia when they decided to use light forces in urban terrain (because once again, politicians seemed to think they and they alone knew what the troops on the ground needed)...

Black Hawk down is an illuminating example of thinking that light forces are all that is required for urban operations...

 

[IPA35]

Another acceptable thing would be to have one fully equipped tank battalion for the 13th brigade, so around 60 operational tanks plus additional tanks in storage.
Same with the PzH's.

But what to do with the other brigade?
Preferably lighter .


I like the Australian structure, 1 heavy brigade, one medium brigade and one light brigade (for us the Air Assault Brigade).

And I would like to see the NatRes to become an independent reserve brigade, comparable to a Australian 2e division brigade, for example the 8th.


EDIT:
Expeditionary capabilities would be granted by te Marine Corps (they should buy some EFV's and their own towed guns), and the airmobile brigade.
The ligher brigade would be used abroad but not at the same readyness level.

 

[Soner1980]

Sofar I know from the Dutch army, it is small but capable. I don't know if the today's Dutch infantry try to flee or escape when being overrun but they are fighting bravely in Afghanistan. The training is pretty NATO standard and the hardware is modern. The training standard has dropped down and is more easy if you look to the early 1990's when it was more disciplined and heavier trained. Military fundings decreased significantly where the army suffered the most. I can call the Dutch army an heroic militairy organisation as the Dutch fought 80 years long against Philips II (Spain) without surrendering in 1568-1648.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Bushmaster 2.0 afgeleverd

magazines.defensie.nl

The Dutch have received their first Electronic Warfare Bushmaster. I believe this has been mentioned in the NZ thread so the above link has some more detail about this.

I believe the dutch are after 12 of this type. I can possibly see this and reigniting interest in the Bushmaster design elsewhere. Dutch seem pretty happy with them.

 

[Toptob]

These sentences seemed weird:

"Het voertuig is gepantserd en kan dus mee op patrouilles naar de meest afgelegen streken. Ook rijdend werkt alles."

The vehicle is armored so it can join patrols in the most remote area's. And everything works on the move. But the article definitely mentions the extendable masts, and on the pictures that one mast looks like it's 6m or higher. So are they going to drive around with this thing extended?!?

Anyway, the main reason for defense to upgrade and expand the Bushmaster fleet is to recapitalize on an investment that they where forced to make for the Afghanistan deployment. At that time the Bushmasters where procured with great haste and under pressure because they lacked a mine protected troop carrier. Now they have a light infantry brigade and they are stinging on buying more Boxers for special missions by re-purposing the Bushmasters as command and EW vehicles.

But at least they are being put to good use.

 

[kato]

Anyway, the main reason for defense to upgrade and expand the Bushmaster fleet is to recapitalize on an investment that they where forced to make for the Afghanistan deployment.

Is there any info in Dutch media on why for the April 2020 order of six Bushmasters, five will be medical and exactly one unit an infantry mobility variant? Is this a replacement for a destroyed vehicle, some sort of reorganization requiring exactly "one more", or possibly sort of a test vehicle for a more current infantry mobility version with a prospect of further buys?

But at least they are being put to good use.

On this side of the border we simply sold off all of the MRAPs that had been bought similarly rapidly and adhoc for Afghanistan (147 Dingo 1 out of service, further 553 Dingo 2 bought as follow-on planned to be retired within the next five years).

 

[Toptob]

Is there any info in Dutch media on why for the April 2020 order of six Bushmasters, five will be medical and exactly one unit an infantry mobility variant? Is this a replacement for a destroyed vehicle, some sort of reorganization requiring exactly "one more", or possibly sort of a test vehicle for a more current infantry mobility version with a prospect of further buys?


On this side of the border we simply sold off all of the MRAPs that had been bought similarly rapidly and adhoc for Afghanistan (147 Dingo 1 out of service, further 553 bought as follow-on planned to be retired within the next five years).

@kato I couldn't find anything about any Bushmaster being bought in 2020. I believe the last incident with one was in Mali in 2015. I do know the Bushmaster is used by 11th air-mobile, 13th light infantry and the commando's. 13 has Boxers so I doubt they would use the Bushmasters as ambulances. So maybe those are for the commando's who do use Bushmaster ambulances.

I don't know about buying more though. The Bushmaster fleet was retained and expanded from 2014 as a cheap way of replacing the CV90's that the 13th was losing due to stinginess... Kuch "bezuinigingen", and still call it a brigade. As always soldiers take what they can get, and the Bushmasters have performed great. But I'm willing to bet that those guys would prefer to have more Boxers instead.

As for the immediate future, the Landmacht is working on the CV90 MLU. And politically they are working to finally get some Leopard orders on the official books, but COVID was a good excuse for the government to procrastinate until the next elections.

I would say that if you can find good customers, selling of the Dingo's doesn't seem like a terrible idea. They could be a nice affordable option for poorer countries that operate a lot of "light" forces to motorize a good chunk of it. Countries like Nigeria could use a large fleet of armored vehicles for instance.

 

[kato]

@kato I couldn't find anything about any Bushmaster being bought in 2020.

Only ordered, not yet delivered. See:

Thales to export six more Bushmasters to the Netherlands - Australian Defence Magazine

Thales has signed a contract to export an additional six Bushmasters to the Netherlands.

www.australiandefence.com.au

Just found the 5 Medevac + 1 infantry combination a bit odd.

I would say that if you can find good customers, selling of the Dingo's doesn't seem like a terrible idea.

So far the only Dingo 1 that have found new users ended up in Kurdistan, for free. Dingo 2 will probably be sequentially phased out, with the 300+ basic "patrol/security vehicles" en-bloc as those are not even in planned ToE but only used on deployment. We'll probably be leaving a lot of them simply in Afghanistan and Mali...

 

[Toptob]

Only ordered, not yet delivered. See:

Thales to export six more Bushmasters to the Netherlands - Australian Defence Magazine

Thales has signed a contract to export an additional six Bushmasters to the Netherlands.

www.australiandefence.com.au

Just found the 5 Medevac + 1 infantry combination a bit odd.



So far the only Dingo 1 that have found new users ended up in Kurdistan, for free. Dingo 2 will probably be sequentially phased out, with the 300+ basic "patrol/security vehicles" en-bloc as those are not even in planned ToE but only used on deployment. We'll probably be leaving a lot of them simply in Afghanistan and Mali...

FOUND IT!!!!

In 't kort

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1233031566386962434

It's somewhere half down the page. Apparently there is a "special" pool of 10 Bushmasters that are under the command of the "Commandant der Strijdkrachten" and these will be added to this pool. So these are probably meant to operate with the special forces. I read rumors that the ambulances are probably to provide those forces with organic medical capabilities. In order to be less dependent on "internationale partners".

This article describes how they are training with a "Special Operations Surgical Team" after lessons learned during operations in Mali.

Chirurgische ondersteuning voor Special Forces

The lone infantry carrier might be a replacement or some added capacity, but it's probably also destined to go to the special forces.

Edit:

Well at least they found new users that needed them... And the Kurds definitely have a lot of troops but modest resources, so it's nice they could motorize a chunk of them with modern high quality armored vehicles. Pretty much the ideal application for vehicles that the user is done with but still have a lot of use in them. And at the same time they were still of some use to the German government as a political tool to stir the pot in Syria, as the Chinese like to say "win win"!

 

[Toptob]

Some interesting stuff from the Netherlands:

Nederlandse bevolking vindt sterke krijgsmacht belangrijker dan ooit

Hot dang! The biannual "Draagvlakmonitor" shows 67% of the Dutch are proud of Dutch service members, and 48% think that we need to spend more on defense. I must say, that's better than I expected of the jelly spined pacifist Dutch population.

Begrotingsfonds voor Defensiematerieel nu feit

The laws have been passed to institute the "Defensiematerieelfonds" which is supposedly an organization and fund that will manage the finances and provide insight and long term support for defense procurement programs. All I see is another layer of useless bureaucracy and political meddling.

Vector-arsenaal voor commando’s compleet

The KCT has now received all of their new VECTOR commando vehicles to replace their old Mercedes-Benz (MB) G280 CDI.

EOD in straatbeeld met nieuwe voertuigen voor ruimen CBRN-explosieven

The EOD (explosive disposal unit) has received two new trucks together with 3 containers with specialized CBRN disposal equipment.


Not an army matter, but this page has some government published lists of the use of F-16's in support of the "anti ISIS coalitie" from 2014 to 2018, except for 2017 when they didn't participate.

Weekoverzichten F-16 inzet anti-ISIS coalitie 2014-2018

Looks like they flew quite a lot of missions, and if they widely published the amount of bombs they dropped I don't think 67% of us would be so proud... although I am both proud and impressed.