Hello guys. I am trying to find detailed information on the TO&E of the modern German army as frequent as possible, but not that successfully anyway. I can perfectly speak german so even info and links in german would be very helpfull. I am especially hoping for the help of the german forum members. The panzerbaer.de website was very helpfull, but only concerning armoured troops of any kind and I also need the Bataillonstruktur down to the separate soldier if possible and also for Fallschirmjager, Gebirgsjager ond other Truppengattungen.
Deutsches Heer (German Army) TO&E and OrBat
- Thread starter BuSOF
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hmmm, some problems there because the Bundeswehr is currently in transition to the newest structure ("2010"). don't think Panzerbaer.de even has the current structure for the Armored, only Heeresstruktur 4 and 5 or so.
The official Bundeswehr site, if you dig deep enough, has the OrBat down to company level, though no ToE of course.
An "example ToE/OrBat" for the bataillons wouldn't even help you - because there are differences between bataillons of the same Waffengattung. E.g. the three Gebirgsjägerbaillone have two different OrBats.
http://www.gebirgsjaegerbataillon232.de/gliederung.html has the OrBat and ToE (including number of personnel) down to company level, for the last structure i think (since they still have the mortar M113s in that one, and no assigned Bv-206).
Current and future OrBat/ToE of the kind and detail you want fall under OpSec and are classified VS/NfD minimum (this should also a rather broad hint to active and reserve Bundeswehr soldiers intending to post in this thread).
You won't find much, other than some (theoretical) documents on e.g. planning for joint recon/artillery units in the 2010 structure, like in what the other guy posted. With some stuff you can go with easy assumptions (e.g. 4 tanks per platoon, work your way up), and adjust to get to the total numbers (which you can find e.g. in BwPlan 2005, also VS/NfD) based on the above structure information from bundeswehr.de. Works out pretty neatly for some stuff, not so neatly for other stuff.
The official Bundeswehr site, if you dig deep enough, has the OrBat down to company level, though no ToE of course.
An "example ToE/OrBat" for the bataillons wouldn't even help you - because there are differences between bataillons of the same Waffengattung. E.g. the three Gebirgsjägerbaillone have two different OrBats.
http://www.gebirgsjaegerbataillon232.de/gliederung.html has the OrBat and ToE (including number of personnel) down to company level, for the last structure i think (since they still have the mortar M113s in that one, and no assigned Bv-206).
Current and future OrBat/ToE of the kind and detail you want fall under OpSec and are classified VS/NfD minimum (this should also a rather broad hint to active and reserve Bundeswehr soldiers intending to post in this thread).
You won't find much, other than some (theoretical) documents on e.g. planning for joint recon/artillery units in the 2010 structure, like in what the other guy posted. With some stuff you can go with easy assumptions (e.g. 4 tanks per platoon, work your way up), and adjust to get to the total numbers (which you can find e.g. in BwPlan 2005, also VS/NfD) based on the above structure information from bundeswehr.de. Works out pretty neatly for some stuff, not so neatly for other stuff.
Hehehe, finding a the actual ToE/OrBat for every unit is not easy but when you compare it to what is actually in the unit it's getting even more interesting.
Are there even units which have all their claimed equipment and personal or fully adopted every new structure? Not to talk of organization differents. As an example you could use snipers which seem to be organized in a different way in every single infantry bn be it Jäger, Panzergrenadiere, etc..
And jupp Panzerbaer.de is not the newest structure. For example no Boxers in the tech group of an armored company.
Are there even units which have all their claimed equipment and personal or fully adopted every new structure? Not to talk of organization differents. As an example you could use snipers which seem to be organized in a different way in every single infantry bn be it Jäger, Panzergrenadiere, etc..
And jupp Panzerbaer.de is not the newest structure. For example no Boxers in the tech group of an armored company.
My bataillon had the full assigned number of vehicles and equipment in 1999 (well, if you count the ones in maintenance at the same base).
Of course whether these could move on their own is another question...
Actually, we had 20% overhead in equipment, since the duty-tour company - Bosnia and Macedonia back then - had a full separate set for their tour, and left their assigned stuff at home. And the maintenance company had some stuff (a company worth of various armored vehicles in particular) that definitely never appeared in any official ToE. Same for some of the more obscure stuff in my company's armory.
Now, number of personnel... let's not talk about that. That was just sad, even in those spots supposed to be filled with conscripts.
contedicavour
New Member
In Italy we have 2 oversized brigades who are kept on purpose above standard personnel/equipment strength. Those are the ones most often overseas (Ariete, Garibaldi). The other ones all suffer from lack of full strength in personnel (situation is better on equipment numbers, but new material is often backed up by obsolete VCC1&2 which are M113 derivatives)That's exactly what I mean. I have never seen a unit which had everything, all their equipment, the right equipment and enough soldiers.
I wonder why defence ministries (who should lower costs) prefer to keep many understrength brigades instead of having less but at full strength. This would reduce a lot of overhead costs...
cheers
I can't say this is the case here, but one good reason. If you need to expand the army quickly, having those under-manned units make the process much faster than fleshing out a new unit from scratch.
Seems the only way to get accurate information on armies today is to buy a subscription to Jane's Defense or The Military Balance. Allot of this information used to be accessible, but times they have changed.
Wasn't really accessible ten years ago either (or even less than today).
If you search a bit on the internet, you can find quite a lot of ToE information for single units of the German army (available are e.g.: tank formation ToEs, Gebirgsjäger ToE, recon forces, Luftwaffe etc), at least for the vehicles.
The problem is more that with the downsizing, there are ... well, about 50 "different" unit types in the Bundeswehr. And you won't find indepth information on certain units on the internet at all.
With a lot of it you can guess pretty well actually. For example, while afaik the paratrooper units are not always very public with their ToE, you can take a broad hint from the planned structure of the airmobile regiment (which is partway modeled after the paratrooper forces).
As for the undermanned units, the Bundeswehr had the socalled Feldersatzkompanien. Which, unlike what the name suggests, weren't supposed to replace unit losses in the field or anything like that, but were organized to keep a supply of trained reserve soldiers ready for a bataillon/brigade/division. The units only kept little equipment, and their peacetime strength was usually 2 people (personnel manager, equipment manager). The reserve soldiers of these units would, in wartime, fill in spots in the assigned unit, replacing conscripts and "not filled spots" there, with the conscripts then relegated to other duties. These reserve unit structures still exist, at least with combat units, and are still at similar strengths (one extra company for a bataillon, one extra bataillon for a brigade).
Oh, and of course there's the little internal nepotism going on. Staff officer in brigade or division command is a good, quiet position for a friend, and the more commands you have, the more staff officers you need naturally.
There has been criticism of these proceedings always (in the Bundeswehr most recently: why do we need the DLO division? it's made up of a helicopter brigade supporting another division - could be placed there -, and a general-army-support brigade whose units would be perfectly placed below the overall army command, as two or three regiments).
contedicavour
New Member
There's Jane's all the world's armies who is The reference... but is sure is expensive, especially if you buy the regular updates.
Most information available for free today is on equipment, not on the organization. Still, some armies are making efforts. The Italian army's site is pretty extensive in its explaining of the structure of each regiment, its equipment and its history. Ask your government for more transparence
cheers
Most information available for free today is on equipment, not on the organization. Still, some armies are making efforts. The Italian army's site is pretty extensive in its explaining of the structure of each regiment, its equipment and its history. Ask your government for more transparence
cheers
jamesteo320
New Member
Does anybody knows what is the number of german army infantry section? what about the number of an infantry platoon?
Thank You
Thank You
Mechanized Infantry (Panzergrenadiere):
9 per squad, about 40 per platoon (4 squads + platoon support team)
Mountain Infantry (Gebirgsjäger):
about 12 per squad, about 40 per platoon (3 squads + command section + platoon support team)
Light Infantry (Jäger) and Paratroopers (Fallschirmjäger):
no idea, should be very similar to Gebirgsjäger though.
nah, that's the platoon commander, platoon sergeant, their immediate staff and the drivers for the platoon's vehicles.
ATGM (Milan) is hooked up at company level, in a "4th platoon" (that is held as "company support squad"), together with the sniper teams and a 40mm GMG-team.
The primary anti-tank capability in German light infantry howevver is in the 5th company of a light infantry batallion (the fire support "heavy company"), which has a dedicated AT platoon (with 6x Wiesel TOW), an "autocannon platoon" (with 6x Wiesel BMK 20mm) and two mortar platoons (with 4x 120mm mortar on Wolf jeeps), all of which directly support the infantry companies as needed.
Effective STAN TOE differs from bataillon to bataillon really, though.
edit: added the following --
edit2: refined a bit --
In the case of JgBtl 292 in the Franco-German Brigade, the structure is as following (as i understand it):
- Staff/Services Company
- Training Company
- Reserve/Replacement Company
- 3x Light Infantry Company, ea:
\- 3x Infantry Platoon, ea:
\- Platoon Command Team
\- Driver Team (4x Fuchs, 4x MG3 ?)
\- 3x Infanty Squad (9 men, 2x MG4 ea)
\- Driver Team (4x Fuchs, 4x MG3 ?)
\- 3x Infanty Squad (9 men, 2x MG4 ea)
\- Company Command Squad
\- Command Team (1x Fuchs?)
\- Staff Team (presumed)
\- "4th Platoon"
\- Staff Team (presumed)
\- "4th Platoon"
\- Milan Team (1x Wolf, 1x Milan)
\- 2x Sniper Team
\- 40mm GMG Team (1x Wolf, 1x GMG)
\- 2x Sniper Team
\- 40mm GMG Team (1x Wolf, 1x GMG)
- Firesupport Company
\- Autocannon Platoon
\- 3x Autocannon Squad (2x Wiesel / 20mm ea)
\- Anti-Tank Platoon
\- 3x Anti-Tank Squad (2x Wiesel / TOW ea)
\- 2x Mortar Platoon, ea:
\- Platoon Command Team (1x Wolf)
\- Fire Control Team (1x Wolf)
\- Aiming Circle / Preparation Team (1x Wolf)
\- 2x Forward Observer Team (1x Wolf ea)
\- 4x Mortar Team (3x Wolf, 1x 120mm mortar ea)
\- Fire Control Team (1x Wolf)
\- Aiming Circle / Preparation Team (1x Wolf)
\- 2x Forward Observer Team (1x Wolf ea)
\- 4x Mortar Team (3x Wolf, 1x 120mm mortar ea)
\- Company Command Squad
\- Command Team
\- Staff Team (presumed)
\- Aiming Circle / Preparation Team (1x Wolf)
\- Staff Team (presumed)
\- Aiming Circle / Preparation Team (1x Wolf)
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Well, JgBtl 292 only got Fenneks for that, afaik, no Wiesel Recce.
The February 2007 special release of "Heracles" (French Army Magazine, that release deals with the Franco-German Brigade) at least only list Fennek, VBL and AMX-10RC as "recon vehicles".
edit: actually, i'm not even sure it's 292 that has the Fenneks - the D/F brigade also contains art btl 295, which operates Fennek AB in Afghanistan right now.
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Regular Wolf, or more likely Wolf MSS/MSA/SSA (uparmoured variants) in Afghanistan.
Serval is not introduced in the army really. The KSK has a handful of them, and that's pretty much it (Rheinmetall states 21 delivered). No plans for more either.
Also, remember that this is light infantry. They technically only fight dismounted, the vehicles are generally not supposed to enter combat at all (except for the Wiesel). The terrain that they fight in doesn't lend itself to using vehicles either (primary, depending on unit: urban combat / forests / mountains).
The GMG has the main purpose of providing HE direct/indirect fire support at the intermediate range between the organic 40mm grenade launchers and the 120mm mortars at batallion level. From a dismounted, entrenched position usually, not an unstable fire position and easy target like a vehicle.