Challenger 2 with wire cage and upgrade of armour

A

armyreco1

Banned Member
Hello,

This weekend i have take pictures about the British main battle tank Challenger 2 and the light armoured vehicle CVRT Scimitar with wire cage.

See pictures :

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Greetings.

Alain
 
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A

Aussie Digger

Guest
DoC_FouALieR said:
That's right.

back to the topic: Is a wire cage really effective against RPGs?
Click to expand...
Yep. An RPG warhead requires a large amount of metal to work effectively, it works by melting the metal of armour so that a high speed "jet" of molten metal sprays around the inside of the vehicle, which is why a small hole is all that appears on the outside of the vehicle where a HEAT warhead has struck.

If it has nothing to melt (ie: air) it doesn't work as well and rapidly loses it's lethality, so that by the time it hits the main armour, it no longer poses a great threat...

The "cage" or "bar armour" (as it's sometimes known) is designed to detonate a HEAT warhead away from the main armour of a vehicle for precisely this reason. This type of armour has been used (at least) since Vietnam and is very effective, reportedly, plus it has the benefit of being able to be fitted and removed quite quickly, unlike normal armour...
 
gf0012-aust

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
DoC_FouALieR said:
That's right.

back to the topic: Is a wire cage really effective against RPGs?
Click to expand...
Its not actually a new solution - the South Africans were using cage armour some 40 years ago when they were fighting communist rebels.


So whats old is "new" ;)
 
gf0012-aust

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
brian00 said:
Indeed the germans used cages and mesh to protect the sides of their panzer IVs during WW2
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I've just finished doing some reading of german armour development from WW2 - it never ceases to amaze me of how much innovation they bought to the table in WW2 - and which is still impacting upon MBT/IFV design today.
 
K

kotay

Member
Aussie Digger said:
Yep. An RPG warhead requires a large amount of metal to work effectively, it works by melting the metal of armour so that a high speed "jet" of molten metal sprays around the inside of the vehicle, which is why a small hole is all that appears on the outside of the vehicle where a HEAT warhead has struck.

If it has nothing to melt (ie: air) it doesn't work as well and rapidly loses it's lethality, so that by the time it hits the main armour, it no longer poses a great threat...

The "cage" or "bar armour" (as it's sometimes known) is designed to detonate a HEAT warhead away from the main armour of a vehicle for precisely this reason. This type of armour has been used (at least) since Vietnam and is very effective, reportedly, plus it has the benefit of being able to be fitted and removed quite quickly, unlike normal armour...
Click to expand...

I used to think that that's how a shaped charge worked, but apparently it isn't the case.

This is an interesting read ... http://www.dean.usma.edu/math/research/msce/11th_AUTS/papers/Walters.pdf

Specifically,
This concept is not well understood by people outside the warhead community. For example, the jet is not a “cutting plasma”, it is not a liquefied or molten metal jet, the cone does not impact the armor intact, the jet temperature is not 20,000 C, and the density of the jet is not several times that of steel, and the jet does not burn its way through armor, as reported in many newspaper, TV, and even semi-technical journal articles. Some confusion may arise due to the fact that shaped charge devices are sometimes called HEAT rounds. HEAT is an acronym for High Explosive Anti-Tank and does not relate to thermal effects
Click to expand...

Due to the high velocity of the jet tip and the tremendous pressure it creates at the point of impact, the materials behave like a fluid and the armour material is actually pushed aside rather than punched or melted through.

The effectiveness of the cage works in a few ways. It can "catch" the HEAT rounds in the space between the slats, in which case the round doesn't go off at all. In the case that the cage does initiate the incoming round, it causes it to use up it's penetrative capability on the air space in between.

While a kinetic penetrator will penetrate a greater thickness of (say) aluminium and a lesses thickness of Steel, a shaped charge jet will penetrate the same distance irrespective of the medium (ceramics may make a difference - I'm not sure). Penetration capability is more dependant on the cone diameter and the subsequent length of the jet formed, once the jet goes past that length, it starts to break up and penetration effectiveness is no longer optimal. Hence the air space in most modern MBT armour layers.
The Schurzen used by the Germans in WW2 were originally developed to defeat small calibre APDS from ATRs. The effectiveness of this screen against HEAT was, I think, a serendipitious discovery

 
M

Marky

New Member
Challenger 2

Not that the CR 2 really needs it. In Gulf war 2 a CR2 from the Queens Royal Hussars became immobilised after throwing one of its tracks. Unable to move or defend themselves due to a stoppage of their chain gun. Iraqi forces fired up to four RPGs and one sagger missile at various areas of the turret and hull without damage or injury to the crew. Later the crew was rescued by reinforcements.
A truly world class tank
 
W

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The question is, where did they hit the Chally with their RPGs and Sagger? The new cages are only at the back. There the armor of even the Cally 2 should be weak enough not to withstand good RPGs or ATGMs.

It is very interesting to see how many things have to be learned over and over again.
It's the same with gunshields. Just look at Vietnam. The US had very much gunshields. But in Iraq they had to learn the lesson again in a bloody way. The same with cage armor.
 
M

mmmbop

New Member
Aussie Digger said:
Yep. An RPG warhead requires a large amount of metal to work effectively, it works by melting the metal of armour so that a high speed "jet" of molten metal sprays around the inside of the vehicle, which is why a small hole is all that appears on the outside of the vehicle where a HEAT warhead has struck.

If it has nothing to melt (ie: air) it doesn't work as well and rapidly loses it's lethality, so that by the time it hits the main armour, it no longer poses a great threat...

The "cage" or "bar armour" (as it's sometimes known) is designed to detonate a HEAT warhead away from the main armour of a vehicle for precisely this reason. This type of armour has been used (at least) since Vietnam and is very effective, reportedly, plus it has the benefit of being able to be fitted and removed quite quickly, unlike normal armour...
Click to expand...
Isn't one of the destroyed Stryker in Iraq equipped with the cage?
 
W

Wooki

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Waylander said:
...The new cages are only at the back...
Click to expand...
Not that I have seen the photos, but cage armor over the rear drive wheel is good as if you'll notice most armies have left their MBT drive wheels exposed because of a simple thing called mud. It makes it a pain in the neck to maintain when the drive wheel is skirted as well. Cage armor lets objects out and its better to have something than nothing.

cheers


W
 
V

Viktor

New Member
Aussie Digger said:
Yep. An RPG warhead requires a large amount of metal to work effectively, it works by melting the metal of armour so that a high speed "jet" of molten metal sprays around the inside of the vehicle, which is why a small hole is all that appears on the outside of the vehicle where a HEAT warhead has struck.
If it has nothing to melt (ie: air) it doesn't work as well and rapidly loses it's lethality, so that by the time it hits the main armour, it no longer poses a great threat...
The "cage" or "bar armour" (as it's sometimes known) is designed to detonate a HEAT warhead away from the main armour of a vehicle for precisely this reason. This type of armour has been used (at least) since Vietnam and is very effective, reportedly, plus it has the benefit of being able to be fitted and removed quite quickly, unlike normal armour...
Click to expand...
RPG7 cost around 500 dolars and granade 300 dolars - LOL not mutch of a money and fireing couple of them at same vehicle/tank is good game if you see economic count.
 
W

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
It is not very economical if you count the live of the poor bastard trying to get away alive after firing a RPG onto a tank platoon. ;)
 
V

Viktor

New Member
Waylander said:
It is not very economical if you count the live of the poor bastard trying to get away alive after firing a RPG onto a tank platoon. ;)
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It is economical - Rpg7 or Rpg29 is mostly used in urban combat - fire and escape. I was not saying anything about suicide man with RPG. It is most economical way to destroy tank and if you research a little bit you will find numerous destroyed Abrams, Bradly, etc. And one Bradly cost what 5Min ad RPG-29 wwith 750mm penetration after ERA will rip it apart. APS is only protection but it has its limitations - and that is explosions also cause death or injury of neighbory solders.
 
A

Archer

New Member
The cage armour is designed to basically prevent a RPG from detonating on the armour by acting against its fuse, and only the old RPG-7s are particularly susceptible to this...so whilst it may be useful in Iraq, against new AT weapons, cage armour will be much ado over nothing..
 
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