BVR Aerial Warfare

dragonfire

New Member
Is it possible for two fighters to take out each other simultaneously from Beyond Visual Range using long range A2A missiles. With technologies like LOAL the targeted fighters wont get warnings from the RWR until the missile is in the active seeking mode (or am i completely off here). Just wanted to know what everyone thinks about this

Also what are the latest technologies in BVR warfare.
 
the targeted fighters wont get warnings from the RWR until the missile is in the active seeking mode (or am i completely off here).
only if each of the fighters were using LPI radar and whose local RWR did not pick up (identify) the targeting from the launch platform's radar...then they would probably not be notified until the missile's seeker went active....i would imagine, yes. otherwise, i would imagine the RWR would pick up the targeting emissions as early-warning before or at launch
 

Scorpion82

New Member
only if each of the fighters were using LPI radar and whose local RWR did not pick up (identify) the targeting from the launch platform's radar...then they would probably not be notified until the missile's seeker went active....i would imagine, yes. otherwise, i would imagine the RWR would pick up the targeting emissions as early-warning before or at launch
Certainly not ARH missiles don't need a specific lock-on illumination mode unlike SAHR missiles. You launch ARH missiles in TWS mode, the mode won't change so there is no sign about a missile being launched or not. But it is necessary to take into account that an increasing number of modern combat aircraft is equiped with missile approach warners. Wether those are effective enough to detect an AAM at long ranges is questionable however.

In other words dragonfire's scenario works and doesn't require LPI to do so. The RWR will show you the presence of the enemies radar, but gives no launch warning.

Regarding latest technologies for BVR fighting. Well it's a lot AESA radars, DRFM jammers, ESM, HMD/S, bi-directional SA datalinks, sensor fusion etc. BVR combat is complex and depends on many factors the most prominent is situational awareness which is effected by a lot of factors such as MMI (cockpit ergonomy, avionics integration/automatisation), sensors of all kinds, available 3rd party support etc. Stealth characteristics and counter measures will contribute to information superiority or superior SA as well by denying the enemy the same information about your aircraft. Weapons are important their range, CM resistence and overall performance, seeker capabilities etc. Flight performance is still relevant though less dominant than in the past. For BVR it's mainly supersonic/high altitude performance which matters including manoeuverability, acceleration and climb performance.
 
Certainly not ARH missiles don't need a specific lock-on illumination mode unlike SAHR missiles. You launch ARH missiles in TWS mode, the mode won't change so there is no sign about a missile being launched or not. But it is necessary to take into account that an increasing number of modern combat aircraft is equiped with missile approach warners. Wether those are effective enough to detect an AAM at long ranges is questionable however.

In other words dragonfire's scenario works and doesn't require LPI to do so. The RWR will show you the presence of the enemies radar, but gives no launch warning.

Regarding latest technologies for BVR fighting. Well it's a lot AESA radars, DRFM jammers, ESM, HMD/S, bi-directional SA datalinks, sensor fusion etc. BVR combat is complex and depends on many factors the most prominent is situational awareness which is effected by a lot of factors such as MMI (cockpit ergonomy, avionics integration/automatisation), sensors of all kinds, available 3rd party support etc. Stealth characteristics and counter measures will contribute to information superiority or superior SA as well by denying the enemy the same information about your aircraft. Weapons are important their range, CM resistence and overall performance, seeker capabilities etc. Flight performance is still relevant though less dominant than in the past. For BVR it's mainly supersonic/high altitude performance which matters including manoeuverability, acceleration and climb performance.
understood - it is entirely too basic a conclusion that i drew. this might be an obvious question (but i cant recall seeing it here recently) - but what is holding back from incorporating LPI onto/into the missile seeker? is the technology too expensive? does it require newer technology AESA - that might not be able to be fit into such a small package? is there even a requirement for this, since generally when the missile goes active it's already NEZ - and with the high-g turn rate of the missile, it's not really a necessity whether the target knows he's being painted at that point/end-game?

not to tangent - but what are the requirements for an LPI radar?
does it have to be of AESA technology?
are there power or physical space (cooling) limitations re: LPI vs traditional radar?
or is it mostly frequency hopping/switching speed, firmware/programming/computational power that is the determining factor to make LPI. are there non-AESA LPI radars in existence?


-thanks
 

Scorpion82

New Member
understood - it is entirely too basic a conclusion that i drew. this might be an obvious question (but i cant recall seeing it here recently) - but what is holding back from incorporating LPI onto/into the missile seeker? is the technology too expensive? does it require newer technology AESA - that might not be able to be fit into such a small package? is there even a requirement for this, since generally when the missile goes active it's already NEZ - and with the high-g turn rate of the missile, it's not really a necessity whether the target knows he's being painted at that point/end-game?

not to tangent - but what are the requirements for an LPI radar?
does it have to be of AESA technology?
are there power or physical space (cooling) limitations re: LPI vs traditional radar?
or is it mostly frequency hopping/switching speed, firmware/programming/computational power that is the determining factor to make LPI. are there non-AESA LPI radars in existence?


-thanks
Well LPI is just an umbrella term. It merely indicates the effort to reduce detectability of RF emissions and this can be achieved by various means. Frequent changes of the signal characteristics such as frequency (frequency hopping) at best occuring randomley, meaning that those signals can't be identified by repeating patterns, power managing the signal to avoid unnecessary poweroutputs, focussing emissions in areas of interest etc. all reduce detectability. If there aren't repeating patterns and just small transmissions, at best multiple at once at different frequencies the receiver might be overfed as it simply can't scope with so many signals and as there is no pattern which can be identified the software/algorithms of some RWR's must just sort out the signals as it can't adquately process them or discards it as background noise. LPI is not an AESA inherent design feature, but agile beam steering and the ability to focus narrow beams at a target or use even multiple beams at once offers opportunities which can't be provided by a mechanically scanning radar. MSA radars can still incoorperate LPI techniques, but not to the extend of an AESA radar.
Regarding missile seekers the problem is that missiles are small and AESA radars are heavier, more power hungry and have higher cooling demands, this might be problematic. And for a one shot situation it might not even be worth the effort, but I could imagin that AESA radar seekers will find their way into missiles, not for LPI characteristics, but to increase the range performance and counter measures resistence. Wether this is possible right now, I have my doubts, but don't know it for sure. But such tech is getting more efficient, smaller and lighter.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Just to add to Scorps’ excellent answer to the OP, the critical element is information dominance which is achieved at a systems level rather than a platform level. Off board sensors, integration and supporting assets are often significantly more important than an individual platforms performance. That’s not to say platforms are irrelevant in the BVR regime but they are only one link in the kill chain. In that respect the F-15's unparalleled kill record is probably more due to the overwhelming supporting assets the USAF brings to battle (in addition to superior training, tactics, avionics and weapons) rather than the platforms inherent kinematic or aerodynamic superiority.

So could two platforms destroy each other? Yes, but it is unlikely IMO simply because they would have to launch from no inherent positional advantage and almost simultaneously. Then they both have to have comparable EW/EWSP suites. Assuming both parties had knowledge of the others position and those positions were comparable in terms of altitude, heading and energy state, and both lunched at almost the same time you could get a mutual kill. But if any of those conditions are not met one platform is either going to get first shot or they are going to be firing from a positional advantage. If one of them gets off a viable shot quickly enough the other guy is going to have to manoeuvre and thus cannot support his missile shot significantly reducing its PK.

Mutual kills are more likely in the pre merge WVR regime IMO.
 
Well LPI is just an umbrella term. It merely indicates the effort to reduce detectability of RF emissions and this can be achieved by various means. Frequent changes of the signal characteristics such as frequency (frequency hopping) at best occuring randomley, meaning that those signals can't be identified by repeating patterns, power managing the signal to avoid unnecessary poweroutputs, focussing emissions in areas of interest etc. all reduce detectability. If there aren't repeating patterns and just small transmissions, at best multiple at once at different frequencies the receiver might be overfed as it simply can't scope with so many signals and as there is no pattern which can be identified the software/algorithms of some RWR's must just sort out the signals as it can't adquately process them or discards it as background noise. LPI is not an AESA inherent design feature, but agile beam steering and the ability to focus narrow beams at a target or use even multiple beams at once offers opportunities which can't be provided by a mechanically scanning radar. MSA radars can still incoorperate LPI techniques, but not to the extend of an AESA radar.
Regarding missile seekers the problem is that missiles are small and AESA radars are heavier, more power hungry and have higher cooling demands, this might be problematic. And for a one shot situation it might not even be worth the effort, but I could imagin that AESA radar seekers will find their way into missiles, not for LPI characteristics, but to increase the range performance and counter measures resistence. Wether this is possible right now, I have my doubts, but don't know it for sure. But such tech is getting more efficient, smaller and lighter.
regarding RWR's and radar patters - i know i have read about decoys that give off fighter/specific platform emissions (e.g. to make/trick the enemy think there is a fighter overhead, and to light up its radar - giving away it's position)..but is this used in combat (EW) at all? wouldn't it be a great advantage to have a platform give off multiple radar patterns/emissions for multiple types of fighter platforms concurrently - and (falsely / false positive) overwhelm the enemy's RWR; essentially making his RWR useless/non-trustable?

does this happen today? it seems like it would be relatively easy to do.
thanks again for your comments.
 

Scorpion82

New Member
There are air launched decoys, but these are mainly used against ground based airdefences, though they could act as false targets against aircraft as well. Wether it really works to try to imitate multiple platforms at once with just one decoy is somewhat questionable.
 
There are air launched decoys, but these are mainly used against ground based airdefences, though they could act as false targets against aircraft as well. Wether it really works to try to imitate multiple platforms at once with just one decoy is somewhat questionable.
i suppose for US forces (systems umbrella/AWACs/SA) - it wouldn't be an issue and root cause/confirmation could be easily identified (via confirmation of contacts from AWACS)... but for another force who doesn't have that luxury, im curious what the procedure or protocol would be for independent fighters/patrols who suddenly start seeing phantom contacts via the RWR. is/would that element of confusion be of any advantage?

(edit) - on a lighter note - i was always curious what the response would be at a domestic airshow if somehow the platform's RWR lit up from an enemy (e.g. russian) platform radar emissions...if one were able to get a-hold of legacy equipment or somehow implement a mobile radar with the proper signature. :)
 

Haavarla

Active Member
There are air launched decoys, but these are mainly used against ground based airdefences, though they could act as false targets against aircraft as well. Wether it really works to try to imitate multiple platforms at once with just one decoy is somewhat questionable.

The Israelis used some type of decoys against Syrian Airdefences with good results.
i'm note sure wich type it was.. could just be some type of small drone they used to bait the Syrian G2A systems..

Considering how long back this war was, i'm not surprised if there exsist some form of airial decoy.. probably a medium/large missile with air-brathing ram jet engine.

I think it will be too exspensive to make a drone just for this purpose..



Thanks
 
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Spetsznaz

New Member
This is kind of stupid, and I'm not 100% positive

But don't several country's have programs for "Stealth Missiles"

There is a lot of Rumors that the Russian Su-27SM will be armed with them:confused:
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
This is kind of stupid, and I'm not 100% positive

But don't several country's have programs for "Stealth Missiles"

There is a lot of Rumors that the Russian Su-27SM will be armed with them:confused:
I could be mistaken, but I believe you are thinking of standoff munitions like JSOW, JASSM and other equivalents. These are munitions which are intended to carry out strikes on ground/ship targets at mid to long range. In order to carry a large enough warhead, an advanced guidance system and sufficient fuel to reach the desired targets it results in a fairly large missile. There have been sig management efforts to make it more difficult to detect or destroy these missiles while they are inbound.

AFAIK there has not been similar work done on air-to-air missiles for a few reasons... Air-to-air missiles themselves are normally fairly small already, which means they would have a small frontal aspect RCS to begin with. Secondly, air-to-air missiles if they use any sort of active seeker become an emitter which then negates any efforts at sig management unless someone can come up with a viable method of having an LPI seeker. Given other efforts already underway and the method of utilizing air-to-air missiles, I am not certain it is worthwhile.

As far as decoys and RWR... The RWR is a passive sensor intended to alert the pilot/WSO that someone else has a radar emitter which is operating in an area. Depending on the radar being used and the capabilities of the RWR, more information might be available. The decoys I am aware of are towed and AFAIK they are primarily intended to mis-direct inbound SAM and possibly air-to-air missiles by creating an apparent target for the missile's seeker that is somewhere other than where the aircraft actually is. IIRC they were used operationally by the USN/USMC over Kosovo in 1999 with one of the decoys having been shot off the cable. The decoys themselves I do not believe are able to spoof a fighter's radar or RWR, as I do not believe that it is able to generate a large enough signature, but I could be mistaken.

-Cheers
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I'm not sure what ranges you would consider sufficient to classify at is a stand-off munition (I would think it's more of a function of what IADS you're dealing with), but the SM does operate (as of right now) anything new or special. It can use the X-31 (Kh-31) both anti-ship and anti-radar, as well as X-29 (Kh-29) all variants. New stand-off munitions are in the works, but none have been delivered or even reached final testing stages as far as I know.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I'm not sure what ranges you would consider sufficient to classify at is a stand-off munition (I would think it's more of a function of what IADS you're dealing with), but the SM does operate (as of right now) anything new or special. It can use the X-31 (Kh-31) both anti-ship and anti-radar, as well as X-29 (Kh-29) all variants. New stand-off munitions are in the works, but none have been delivered or even reached final testing stages as far as I know.
AFAIK a 'standoff' munition is one that can be launched against a target that is not directly observable by the launching aircraft at the time of launch. In other words, LGB are not standoff weapons because the launching aircraft needs to be close enough to the target to either laze it, or tell that someone/something else is.

With the new motors and wingkits available for bombs and cruise missiles, munitions are now able to travel tens, if not hundreds of km independent of their launching aircraft. Whether or not a given weapon has sufficient range or guidance to reach a given target with the IADS associated with it is IMO another story.

-Cheers

Edit: Additional comment. The key point with such weaponry like standoff munitions is that they are not being used to engage airborne targets.
 
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old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I would doubt the effectivness of active aam against aircraft like F22 and frontal shots at F35.
I think the missles seeker would be to small to "see" the target in time to change course and hit it.
 

Spetsznaz

New Member
Wowooo. No No. There is a lot of Rumors that there are already deployed 'FULL STEALTH MISSILES" That radar is not able to read out. Again I could be wrong, these things get thrown around a lot
 
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jaffo4011

New Member
Wowooo. No No. There is alot of Rumors that there are already deployed 'FUL STEALTH MISSLES" That radar is not able to read out. Again I could be wrong, these things get thrown around alot
please correct your grammatical errors in order that the rest of us can read your posts more easily.

and please stop making things up.these are serious forums and you need to reference your 'claims'....otherwise you maybe accused of being nothing more than a fanboy of your mother country,comrade.
 

Spetsznaz

New Member
please correct your grammatical errors in order that the rest of us can read your posts more easily.

and please stop making things up.these are serious forums and you need to reference your 'claims'....otherwise you maybe accused of being nothing more than a fanboy of your mother country,comrade.
Next time please read the thread more carefully

The only other post I made on this thread was that there are certain missiles being developed that will not have a radar signature such as JSOW JASSM munitions.

I also said that I was not 100% positive

I never said anything about my "Mother Country":drunk1

So next time before you make accusations please check all the things I said in my posts.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Play nice guys. Spetz you do seem to have generated yourself a reputation. Please try to be a little more critical of various claims and rumors that you encounter, before repeating them. :)
 
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