BAE Nimrod Mk. 5: Folly or Future?

LancerMc

New Member
As recent aviaiton military press goes, the RAF BAe Mk 5 program has seen set back after set back, and major cost over runs. The program now finally looks on track with all the development aircraft flying. The Ministry of Defense has an important decision later this year to go ahead with production of 12 aircaft and reworking of 3 test aircraft to production standards. Besides the fact that I heard the project is billions of pounds over budget and the RAF has shut down the other Nimrod base leaving only one to cover the British Isle's.

In my opinion what was the RAF ever thinking of taking a plane designed in the very beginning of jet era and converting it into such a modern aircraft? The Nimrod/Comet is one of the most influential aviaiton designs in history but has long lived past is usefullness. I believe the RAF could have saved much more time and money converting a modern airliner like the Airbus A330 or Boeing 737/767 to the same job. With the RAF's future tanker program in the works, I believe the RAF should cut production of the Mk. 5 and replace their ageing and highly secrective Mk. 1's with those production aircraft. They should then convert A330's to do the task of
Mk. 5. By having a large aircraft fleet with more commonality will save costs in training and maintenance.

In a world of less and less defence spending, many militaries are holding on to legacy aircraft including the U.S. with most notably the B-52 and KC-135. While the B-52 is still soldiering quite well for a design now over 50 years old, the KC-135 has turned into a disaster for the U.S. The aircraft should have been replaced decades ago with a more modern design, now the U.S. is in a different but just as bad mess. The USAF has a outdated, and expensive airplanes almost falling apart. The intial plan to replace them with KC-767 turned into a disaster with Boeing's shady practices and outrageous lease deal with the Pentagon. Hopefully when the future tanker program is put forward again that everything will go smoothly. It will be interesting with Airbus participating with the A330.

I am curious what other individuals think of Nimrod program, will it fall or succeed? Should legacy aircraft like the Nimrod and KC-135 still get life extensions even though their designs are outdated and costly? I am especially keen to hear a British or European perspective since I gather there is much more press there on the subject then what I can find in the U.S.
 

Dr Phobus

New Member
Hello,

I agree about Nimrod, its yet another example of massive overspending to produce what 12-15 planes. Really stupid and wasteful, we (the MOD) can not even hold BAe systems financially responsible because it woulds ruin them if they we did. Of course to rebuild and refurbish costs about the same as buying (it's just generally considered less risky to re-build). The Comet is an ancient plane, and of course there's a lot to be said about starting with a new blank slate. Remember the AEW version of Nimrod that was another money pit and another disaster.

The problem the RAF faces was limited number of options. Of course the P-8 is a good option, and frankly we should have got involved and even got to build part of it, especially if we were going to buy 15-20. There are no real European options, Atlantic 3 ?, the Germans bough old Dutch P-3's, the Casa-232 MP variant is not capable enough. Or pay for a rebuild of old Americana P-3's (something LM are getting big into now since they lost the contract). Of course the latter sounds too much like the Nimrod and who to say its going to be as capable. There is no doubt the new role for the "new" Nimrod's will be somewhat different. The electronic warfare and strike ability is far beyond that of the Mk 2's

I spend many a summer holiday in Cornwall, literally camping right by RAF St Mawgan (No. 42 Nimrod Sq) and my Uncle was a RAF fireman, so i got to get on the base all the time.

Also, I do believe its called the Mk 4, not the Mk 5

:xmas :xmas :xmas
 

Izzy1

Banned Member
Wearing my employee's hat (BAE Systems), I have to say that the MRA.4 is a quantum leap in capability over the MR.2 Nirmod it replces - I would also like to point out that nearly 80% of the airframe, avionics, systems and engines are all new build - not just refurbishments of the original airframe. This is partly why costs have overrun and why the programme has took so long to get anything in the air.

In all honesty, the Ministry of Defence, BAE Systems, Boeing (the major sub-contractor) and the RAF all underestimated what an undertaking any Nirmod upgrade was going to be. MR.2 was a very capable yet complicated aircraft - adding new wings, engines and major parts of the fuselage was always going to be a serious undertaking considenring (as mentioned) the "heritage" of the original aircraft.

However, although the MRA.4 has turned out to be an expensive venture, and I too am dissapointed that the RAF will not get more platforms in service, can I say once again, the MRA.4 will offer the RAF far more capability than its predercessor. Unlike the MR.2, the MRA.4 will be able to serve both over-sea and over-land roles - indeed, the RAF is tempted to totally "re-brand" the Nirmod with a different name to symbolise this new capability. Don't be surprised if the MRA.4 becomes a Storm-Shadow Missile Carrier (with at least 10 missiles), producing the biggest bomber the RAF has had since the Vulcan.
 

LancerMc

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
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Your correct it is the Mark 4., sorry for the mistake, my brain has fried from studing for finals and writing papers.
 

Dr Phobus

New Member
Totally understandable, I hope they go well for you :cool:

However, they may call it a Mk 5 if they can get more money out of the MOD :p:

Izzy's had a really important point, The ability for the Nimrod to carry storm shadow is significant, it gives the RAF a fairly long range, non-penetrating bomber. It will have excellent communications, ESM, ECM ability. However, Izzy can you confirm the ability for the Nimrod to carry up to 10 storm shadows, I thought it was only 6.
 
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Izzy1

Banned Member
Sorry yes Dr Phobus your correct, just had another look, the MRA.4's warload can comprise:

(Totals are for one specific weapons system only, combinations obviously vary).

6 x Storm Shadow (2 x per wing and 2 x internal bombay).
4 x AIM-9 or ASRAAM (2 x per wing).
6 x Harpoon (2 x per wing and 2 x internal bombay).
6 x SLAM-ER (2 x per wing and 2 x internal bombay).
10 x Mines (2 x per wing and 6 x internal bombay).
4 x ALARM (2 x per wing).
4 x Maverick (2 x per wing).
9 x Torpedoes (all internal bombay).

Does anyone know anything more about the RAF's idea to change the name from Nirmod?
 

Dr Phobus

New Member
Hello,

I also understand that there some significant fatigue problems with carrying 4 storm-shadows per wing. Shame is can not carry 10 missiles that would be very useful. Saying that, is does carry a good spread of stores.

:smash
 
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