Did Australians troops in East Timor ever got involved in a firefight with regular Indonesian troops? I recall a number of occasions when troops on the East Timor border with West Timor were fired upon by what was described as Indonesian backed militia and individuals believed to be from Kopassus, the Indonesian army special operations unit.
Aussie firefights in East timor question
- Thread starter STURM
- Start date
From what I believe so yes, although unfortunately I can't give anything without someone else being able to say "Where is your evidence". Mostly it has been Aussie soldiers that have said that these were Indonesian troops, but the Indonesian government can always just deny these things like Balibo. Although then again, they may be right and the soldiers may be wrong. This is the thing, it is all second hand knowledge. That can be passed on and twisted in so many different ways,
Although there are probably people on here who can give you more info.
What is true is that, when the Indonesian military said that they had moved out of East Timor an SAS patrol still spotted Indonesian trucks moving through with troops that were yelling insults at them. This I know is true as I read it in the non fiction book "The Amazing SAS" written by Ian McPhedran who conducted a number of interviews for the book and is the current National Bureau Chief and Defence writer for News Limited newspapers.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #3
As part of his research for 'Kopassus' Ken Conboy interviewed some former Kopassus who were at Balibo. It seems they initially mistook the journalists for Portugese advisors but admittted.
Some mention of a firefight with policeman in the first article.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/470404.stm
A interview with Kopassus.
http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/connectasia/stories/201009/s3023738.htm
http://www.etan.org/et2005/december/17/19kopasus.htm
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A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Australian troops had fights with groups of armed men who operated Indonesian Army rifles, grenade, support weapons, uniforms, navigation and communications equipment, were transported by Indonesian army trucks and other vehicles, but no, none of them could have been Indonesian soldiers...
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #5
Point taken. Thanks.
OpinionNoted
Banned Member
I've read same book and did'nt it say sas units got into a few fire fights with indonesian troops?
There was one border incident that took place fairly early on if I remember correctly. An Australian patrol was moving to the border and I think came under fire from Indonesian regulars. The border was not well defined, the Australians thought they were still a few hundred metres from it and the Indonesians thought the Australians were in their territory. This did not descend into a firefight, I believe the Australian patrol was very disciplined and the officers did an extremely good job at diffusing the situation.
My google-fu has not be good looking for information on this, I'm going off memory and so this could wrong.
While we are all going off speculation an interviews that may or may not be false, I think Aussie Digger here has got this one spot on! Even if they "weren't Indonesian" soldiers... how did they get those supplies? Were they possibly "supplied" by Indonesia?
Still Australia wouldn't risk a major disaster over this and thank god our troops are extremely well disciplined or the situation could have turned ugly. But things like this must never be pushed by the government, as our northern neighbours can be pretty twitchy. They can deny Balibo all they want for I care. Hell some Indonesians I have spoken to (I used to play a political-social-war simulator game with RL countries involved) said that they probably were killed, but that its war and sometimes you can't just slam the troops on the ground as we didn't know what the entire story was. A lot of those troops were probably undisciplined as well and probably below 18. We also gotta remember its in the past.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
I don't see any refrences of firefight between regulers from Aussie and TNI. It's matter of 'posturing'. Habbibie manage to ensure that all TNI personal left Timor Leste teritory on time. One of the reasons why the Marines was among the latest unit left Timor Leste shores was to 'ensure' no other unit lurking behind. Habibie more confidence with the Marines then The Army regulars at that time.
The posturing also not just in the land. One the info that comming also some 'posturing' in the air between Indonesia's F-5 and Aussies F-18. The F-5 usually challange the F-18 in the daylight, whille the F-18 return the compliemence by fly-past near Kupang in the night. It's posturing since the Air Force know well that among their inventory only F-16 has the chance to made challange to F-18. Still they deliberately only send F-5 to Kupang (Fighters that electronics and sensors even can't match the sensors and electronics on Hawk 200, let alone F-16 or F-18).
However some Army units (notably Kopassus) rumoured did left some equipment to their proxy. Mostly light infantery armament, some field comm, and some transport). Rumours speculated they can do that since those equipments did not registered with the Army Logistics lists. Thus not calculated when TNI pull back from East Timor. In can be that, since at Soeharto era, Kopassus procurement of equipment can be done without concent of the Army Procurement. (in short at the 90's, Kopassus is an Army within the Army).
t68
Well-Known Member
I received this article from another source, no idea the accuracy of the article. Also I did some looking into this sometime ago but came up short neither confirm or a denial.A lot of it you can take with a grain of salt, 30 F111 flown out from retirement,99% you can take as BS but who really knows.
SAS BLOODBATH
SAS BLOODBATH
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #11
Ananda, at the time of the East Timor crisis, were there many troops of East Timorese descent serving in the TN-AD? With regards to firefights, as Kirkzzy pointed out there's no point in speculating on what we don't know and what has yet to be officially confirmed but there is a strong possibility that certain incidents may have been done by rogue troops acting without authorisation.
Yes you certainly can take the article with a grain of salt, especially the parts about Indonesia testing missiles with a 250-300km range, posession of Stingers, chemical weapons and plans to attack Australia. Any attack, by anyone, which left 100 Indonesians dead or wounded would have been reported by the press.
I read that one a while ago, it is pretty biased at some parts IMO and I can question if the author is Xenophobic. Although there is some truth in it, you never know what happens behind government closed doors. 1980s cabinet documents feared a war with Indonesia as well, but we honestly got no way of knowing again. It also reminds me of the CIA interfering with the Whitlam dismissal and keeping Australia under watch in case it went commie. (Epic guy.. forgot his name blew the whistle of CIA activities in Australia.. give it a google search of "CIA in Australia Whitlam")
Also what STURM just is also partly true about rogue units. Indonesian F5 jets anyone?
Although lets just remember Indonesia has come along way compared to what it used to be under that F*ckwit Suharto, thank god for it as well. There is still much to be done, on ruling democratically but I'm glad and proud to have them as neighbours.
This link however: Kopassus in E Timor - Licensed to kill what STURM posted, gives me some doubt.. mainly relating to the NZ soldier. I really really hope that wasn't Indonesian troops.
that bloke sounds like a Kiwi who wants to talk up the New Zealand army. note how its Australia supporting New Zealand and New Zealand AND Australia
this all sounds really untrue to me especially the extra F-111 bit (not like theyre easy to hide)
Edit: sorry cleaned it up a bit
this all sounds really untrue to me especially the extra F-111 bit (not like theyre easy to hide)
Edit: sorry cleaned it up a bit
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Before this derails any further, can we please inject some discipline back into the material.
Yes you are correct, there was a border incident early on, and I remember it being over that very reason, confusion over where the border was, shots were fired both ways and IIRC the was some injuries on the Indonesian side, but it was cleared up pretty quickly with interpreter's shouting at each other from a distance and they actually all ended up coming together and shaking hands
There was actual footage of the incident as there was either a civilian or military news crew with them. It is on Youtube somewhere, I have seen it before but for the life of me I can't find it again, I will post the link if I can find it again
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #16
This is all I found.
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jLEAJmAwjE&feature=related"]YouTube - East Timor border contact at Motaain 10/10/1999[/nomedia]
Yep, thats pretty much it
, it is the only reference or footage I have seen or heard of for ET, others may have more info
Ananda
The Bunker Group
No, that one of the mistakes that Mindef learn after East Timor and Aceh Insurgences. The face of the Army was to Javanise, and not enough local content. Thus the cohessions between local people and the Army at that area in that time was very low.
Currently the number of local recruit in Papua or soldiers that come from near islands (like mollacas/maluku) are more present in the Army contingent in Papua/Irian. This again to improved the face of the Army in the local people perspective. This especially so in trouble area like Papua now, whille in most part of Indonesia this not really matter due to stronger sense of Nationalistic in local People of otherpart of Indonesia.
In other word, People of East Timor did not feel they belong to Indonesia for most part, and the Indonesian sociaty it self for most part did not try enough to embraced east timor people (even the west timor still suspicious in many part to east timorese). Whille people in Aceh and Papua feel they can still belong to Indonesia, but feel the Government (at that time) left them behind.
That's why, after Acehnese got their own local government with their liking, they mostly calmed down. Whille many papuan especially on the west side of Indonesian Irian/Papua, mostly more acceptive right now when many recruits of local Government now and Police plus Army comming from their rank.
Like i said before, based on the data and media, no Indonesian regulars that lurking back to East Timor after the pull-out. This is the time after Soeharto, and the Media was on extensive mood for their new found freedom. That kind ofthing if happnes can't be contain from the Media.
But some of the units (especially Kopassus) did left behind some of their equipment to their proxy militia. That's what the Aussies particularly has to handle, after TNI pull out.
winnyfield
New Member
I believe thats David Kilcullen on the blower in that vid.
Spot on - Dr Dave - currently advisor to the US administration on how to handle Afghanistan. Reassuring to know that Dave isn't just a talking head with theoretical knowledge only - he's ex RAInf.