Are pistol caliber sub-machine guns still used by militaries?
- Thread starter frolovi
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SMGs have become less popular as advances in soft body armor have been made. I know we haven't issued a SMG since about Korea. With the size of 5.56mm carbines there really isn't a reason to carry one, unless that is you want to limit penetration in congested areas.
Even in American Police Dept's SMGs are pretty much kept locked up while 5.56mm weapons are issued.
For combat they are a pretty poor choice, other then special OPs type stuff where sound suppression is required.
Even in American Police Dept's SMGs are pretty much kept locked up while 5.56mm weapons are issued.
For combat they are a pretty poor choice, other then special OPs type stuff where sound suppression is required.
Most specialist police / military units are moving away from 9mm as the primary and secondary calibre of round used in the urban environment. Traditionally the MP5 family of weapons was the benchmark, and most popular, whether in A3, A5, K, or SD guise. Secondary weapons tended to be a 9mm pistol and (if designated for role) shotgun for breaching. It was common for pistol and SMG’s to be of the same calibre, the rounds carried however would be varied depending on the weapon of choice / role (sub-sonic, hollow-point, full-metal jacket etc). You would always select a sub-sonic round for the MP5SD for example.
Since the early 90’s, due to advances in body armour, narcotics impact on targets ability to fight-on when shot, and the need for greater stopping power, units have moved towards 5.56mm (Sig550, M4, HK53) or even 7.62mm (G3K). Sidearm calibres have or are changing with the good old .45 gaining in popularity again.
Since the early 90’s, due to advances in body armour, narcotics impact on targets ability to fight-on when shot, and the need for greater stopping power, units have moved towards 5.56mm (Sig550, M4, HK53) or even 7.62mm (G3K). Sidearm calibres have or are changing with the good old .45 gaining in popularity again.
Yes, along with U.S military special covert units, there is sub sonic 9mm ammunition that will penetrate body armor.
Back around 15 years ago you could buy 9mm ammunition in the U.S over the counter called Eagle Black Talon produced by Winchester that could penetrate ballistic armor, because of this it was pulled from the civilian market due to the potential hazard that our law enforcement officers could face.
I'm assuming you mean soft kevlar body armour, not SAPI plates? Can't imagine any subsonic 9mm round generating enough energy to do that.
DoC_FouALieR
New Member
French Navy troops still use SMG's like MP5 and combat shotguns when they go onboard vessel, because a 5.56 bullet can penetrate through the thin wall of a ship, and cause extensive damage to critical installations.
However there is always a teammate who carries a 5.56 rifle during those visits, beside his comrades using SMGs.
However there is always a teammate who carries a 5.56 rifle during those visits, beside his comrades using SMGs.
Yes you are correct.
DoC_FouALieR
New Member
Let us no forgetting the HEAVY administration in France that will create tons of paper and waste lot of money just to equip visitex teams with frangible ammunition, instead of regular "we are used to issue" ammos.
Commando units can afford this, because they've got "cash programms", bypassing the tresory, but for simple navy rifleman...
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
The RAAF's "Air Field Defence" guards (Adgies as they're known) have started using 9mm MP5's in their "flightline security" roles.
For what reason I cannot fathom (I guess it's part of their whole "we're elite" too mindsets!), however there you go...
Australian Army elements also use 9mm MP5's and MP5K's in CPP roles (close personal protection) including Military Police (who have primary responsibility for this role within the Australian Army) as do obviously specwarrops elements.
The Army's Counter-Terrorism units, TAG-E and TAG-W (TAG = Tactical Assault Group and E and W refers to East coast and West coast of Australia) also make heavy use of the MP5 series of weapons.
RAN Clearance Diving Teams (CDT's) also make use of them for certain roles.
That's about it for Australia.
For what reason I cannot fathom (I guess it's part of their whole "we're elite" too mindsets!), however there you go...
Australian Army elements also use 9mm MP5's and MP5K's in CPP roles (close personal protection) including Military Police (who have primary responsibility for this role within the Australian Army) as do obviously specwarrops elements.
The Army's Counter-Terrorism units, TAG-E and TAG-W (TAG = Tactical Assault Group and E and W refers to East coast and West coast of Australia) also make heavy use of the MP5 series of weapons.
RAN Clearance Diving Teams (CDT's) also make use of them for certain roles.
That's about it for Australia.
surprised the Aussies haven't moved over to mp-7 for Military police and CCP roles. the CCP seems to be done by MP-7 in the UKThe RAAF's "Air Field Defence" guards (Adgies as they're known) have started using 9mm MP5's in their "flightline security" roles.
For what reason I cannot fathom (I guess it's part of their whole "we're elite" too mindsets!), however there you go...
Australian Army elements also use 9mm MP5's and MP5K's in CPP roles (close personal protection) including Military Police (who have primary responsibility for this role within the Australian Army) as do obviously specwarrops elements.
The Army's Counter-Terrorism units, TAG-E and TAG-W (TAG = Tactical Assault Group and E and W refers to East coast and West coast of Australia) also make heavy use of the MP5 series of weapons.
RAN Clearance Diving Teams (CDT's) also make use of them for certain roles.
That's about it for Australia.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
The weapons mix is: MP5/F-88 Steyr for MP's or MP5/M4A5 for specwarries.
These are "green" roles in Iraq, Afghanistan, East Timor etc, not covert jobs, ie: no real need for semi-concealable weapons on these jobs. Army is not responsible for CPP duties within Australia.
The majority of Domestic CPP jobs are semi-covert, conducted by police and only handguns are carried as a general rule, unless there is some sort of high risk threat assessment for a particular job, in which case different options exist...
AD, the theory behind useing MP5 for ADG's is to limit the potential of downrange damage to assets that may be caused by 5.56, note its only used on the flightline and all patrols beyond the wire use traditional weapons.Also of interest is that some reserve units in the RAAF are now being trained on R870's for the same reason.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Fair enough, sounds much like the reasoning the CT teams used to have towards it as well, ie: supposed over penetration of the 5.56mm round.
Seen the "media shots" of many tactical teams lately? They are using M4's and equivalents nowadays...
It seems on the surface at least to me, to be largely unnecessary for Adgies to use them. Is a 9mm SMG round going to be less damaging than a 5.56mm rifle on most platforms?
I think the difference would be negligble quite frankly...
Shotties OTOH... I can see a use for them, but they'd have to be supported by longer ranging weapons anyway...
You sure someone up reasonably high doesn't just want their Adgies looking "gucci"?
its not really the covert issue it just seems lots nations seem to be returning their mp-5 for mp-7 in second line role [the Norwegians have just chosen the mp-7 to replace the mp-5] many seem to be adopting it in mill and law enforcement
The MP5 (9mm) has been the weapon of choice for CT Teams (Police and Military) in the ‘black role’ for the last 25 years, with 5.56mm / 7.62mm being the calibre of choice for the ‘green role.’ However with improvements in body-armour, ammunition types and the proliferation of small-arms, 9mm now falls well-short. The last thing you want to be is in a close quarter built-up environment armed with an MP5, when you assailant is armed with an AK derivative loaded with steel-core ammo. You will suffer, particularly when your opponent is firing through doors, single brick / prefab walls and your rounds (whether hollow-point or full metal jacket) are shredding or failing to penetrate relatively weak cover. 9MM is also next to useless against soft-skin vehicles, particulalry if you are trying to stop one at speed!
The issue of over penetration (5.56mm) can be mitigated through the choice of ammo, most CT teams will have there own budget to buy operational ammo specific to role. Police will have more choice than military units because they are not bound by the Geneva Convention restricting the use of certain types of ammo (historical factor form the days of the dum-dum round).
One factor in 9mms favour, which may impact upon the choice of ammo is training / range facilities. Many countries across my region (Asia-Pac) have invested serious money in sophisticated CQB training facilities, often these are rated for 9mm only. So if you wish to train as you fight, using one type of ammo / weapon for training and a second for operations is a real disadvantage.
The issue of over penetration (5.56mm) can be mitigated through the choice of ammo, most CT teams will have there own budget to buy operational ammo specific to role. Police will have more choice than military units because they are not bound by the Geneva Convention restricting the use of certain types of ammo (historical factor form the days of the dum-dum round).
One factor in 9mms favour, which may impact upon the choice of ammo is training / range facilities. Many countries across my region (Asia-Pac) have invested serious money in sophisticated CQB training facilities, often these are rated for 9mm only. So if you wish to train as you fight, using one type of ammo / weapon for training and a second for operations is a real disadvantage.