analysis by an US observer of IAF

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Hari in Canada

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Re: Fighter Gap (PAF)- a must read

It is worth posting this analysis by an US observer of IAF.


This article was published in the magazine"Inside the Air Force" looks like a US online publication with access only to subscribers. Hence no URL is available.



Inside The Air ForceJune 4, 2004Pg. 1USAF: Indian Exercises Showed
Need For F/A-22, Changes In TrainingA recent exercise with the Indian
Air Force is causing U.S. Air Force officials to re-evaluate the way
the service trains its fighter pilots while bolstering the case for
buying the F/A-22 as a way to ensure continued air dominance for the
United States, according to service officials.The surprising
sophistication of Indian fighter aircraft and skill of Indian pilots
demonstrated at the Cope India air combat exercise Feb. 15 through 27
at Gwalior Air Force Station, India, should provide a reality check
for those who had assumed unquestioned U.S. air superiority, service
officials who participated in the exercise said this week. The event
was the first-ever air combat exercise involving the U.S. and India
and the most active bilateral military exchange in over 40 years,
according to these officials."The major takeaway for the Air Force is
that our prediction of needing to replace the F-15 with the F/A-22 is
proving out as we get smarter and smarter about other [countries']
capabilities around the world and what technology is limited to in
the F-15 airframe," said Col. Mike Snodgrass, commander of the 3rd
Wing at Elmendorf Air Force Base, AK. "We've taken [the F-15] about
as far as we can and it's now time to move to the next generation."
Snodgrass, who has been selected to receive his first star, and two
other wing officials spoke with Inside the Air Force June 2.The Air
Force has been arguing the absolute necessity of the F/A-22 since the
program began. But the performance of the Indians in direct
competition against the Air Force's best fighter, the F-15C, was
particularly striking evidence of an endangered U.S. lead in air
combat capability, the statements of service officials indicate.Air
Force Chief of Staff Gen. John Jumper told the Senate Appropriations
defense subcommittee in March that the results of Cope India were
"very revealing," although he declined to elaborate in a public
forum. Privately, other senior service officials have pointed to Cope
India as evidence that continued U.S. air superiority is dependent on
the F/A-22.Although service officials have been reluctant to detail
how the Indians performed against the six F-15Cs from the 3rd Wing
that participated in Cope India, Rep. Duke Cunningham (R-CA) said in
a Feb. 26 House Appropriations defense subcommittee hearing that U.S.
F-15Cs were defeated more than 90 percent of the time in direct
combat exercises against the IAF.Officials from the 3rd Wing at
Elmendorf did not provide specifics about how their aircraft fared,
but said the experience is causing the service to reevaluate the way
it trains its pilots for air-to-air operations."What happened to us
was it looks like our red air training might not be as good because
the adversaries are better than we thought," Snodgrass said. "And in
the case of the Indian Air Force both their training and some of
their equipment was better than we anticipated.""Red air" refers to
the way the Air Force simulates enemy capability in air combat
training. Because the service has assumed for years that its fighters
are more capable than enemy aircraft, the U.S. pilots that simulate
the enemy, known as "red" forces, in air combat training are required
to operate under rules that constrain their combat capability."We
have always believed that our technology was superior to everyone
else's technology, that we would fight a somewhat inferior adversary,
so we have had to supply a simulated adversary from our own
resources; we call that 'red air,'" Snodgrass said.As a result, Air
Force pilots are used to flying against an enemy whose combat
capability is deliberately limited."There are maneuvering limits as
well as weapons employment limits, what we believe enemy aircraft may
be able to do with their weapons systems, so we try to simulate that
in our own airplane with our own weapons," Snodgrass explained. "It
becomes very complex because instead of using the airplane the way it
was designed, you now have to come up with rules of thumb that limit
what you do and cause you to not perform . . . the way we really
would want to in combat."The Cope India exercises consisted of air
combat maneuvers in which pilots would practice their fighter tactics
and fly against each other one-on-one, as well as simulated combat
scenarios. It was during this simulated combat, which included both
"offensive counterair" and "defensive counterair" scenarios, that the
Indians proved the most formidable, according to the 3rd Wing
officials. In the offensive counterair scenarios, a small number of
F-15Cs would attempt to intercept an enemy strike aircraft en route
to a target that was guarded by a larger number of Indian fighters.
In the defensive counterair missions, the F-15s would attempt to
defend a target against Indian fighters.In these offensive and
defensive missions, four F-15Cs were usually flying against 10 or 12
of the same model Indian fighter, according to Col. Greg Neubeck,
deputy commander of operations for the wing's 3rd Operations Group
and exercise director for Cope India. The 3rd Operations Group is
responsible for the 3rd Wing's flying mission.The Indians flew a
number of different fighters, including the French-made Mirage 2000
and the Russian-made MIG-27 and MIG-29, but the two most formidable
IAF aircraft proved to be the MIG-21 Bison, an upgraded version of
the Russian-made baseline MIG-21, and the SU-30K Flanker, also made
in Russia, Neubeck said. He emphasized the fact that U.S. forces were
always outnumbered in these scenarios, but said the missions proved
more difficult than expected."What we faced were superior numbers,
and an IAF pilot who was very proficient in his aircraft and smart on
tactics. That combination was tough for us to overcome," Neubeck
said.One reason the Indian pilots proved so formidable is that their
training regimen does not include a concept of "red air." Instead,
"they fly pretty much blue-on-blue . . . [a] full-up airplane with no
restrictions against somebody else's airplane with no restrictions,
and that leads to more proficiency with your aircraft," Neubeck
said.In addition to reinforcing the need for the F/A-22, therefore,
Cope India demonstrated that the service might be able to immediately
improve its air combat capability by changing the way Air Force
pilots train."The Air Force is re-examining, from what I can
understand, our concept of red air and how we might be able to
provide red air to our fighter forces so that we get [the best]
training we can afford," Snodgrass said.Neubeck said the service
probably needs to "take off the handcuffs that we put on our red air
training aids and allow them to be more aggressive and make the red
air tougher than we have in the past."Although India is a friendly
nation, the lesson of Cope India is that almost any nation could
surpass the United States' air combat capability if the Pentagon does
not continue to invest in better training and technology, the
Elmendorf officials said. At last count, for example, there were over
5,000 MIG-21s active in air forces around the world, Snodgrass said.
Even American fighters, such as Boeing's F-15, are being sold in
upgraded versions to countries around the world."I believe what this
demonstrates is that the capacity exists out there for any nation
with the appropriate resources and the will to acquire technology and
to train their aircrews to be very, very capable," said Col. Russ
Handy, commander of the 3rd Operations Group. "In the long term this
could occur in nations outside of the Indian Air Force."The Air Force
will get another chance to test its capabilities against the Indians
in July, when the IAF will bring its Jaguar fighter-bomber aircraft
to Eielson AFB, AK, for the Cooperative Cope Thunder exercise. The
3rd Wing officers said their pilots had not yet flown against an
Indian-piloted Jaguar.-- Hampton Stephens
 

fieldmarshal

New Member
its just a way of puttin the pressure on the politicians to give money to induct the f22 an other weapons quicker....they were in india to evaluate the mki and in all probability let the indian win the engagements to make the point to the govt. n the politicans......its nothin more than a gimic.
indian air force has had its butt kicked in each an every battle that it has come across Pakistan.........so first prove ur self n than come n blow iaf trumpits........n buddy dont get me wrong cuz no hard feelins ..as i am just statin the facts nothin more. :smokingc:
 

VICTORA1

New Member
Guys,
I believe that it is a very open and clear message to the pakistani millitary if they want to open their ears, eyes and minds as to what the indian AF has gone through.

Remember, the time of war is not the time to get ready. One cannot win future combats on the basis of older victories. Indian AF has come a long ways and sadly my beloved pakistan has been static in this field for the last 20 years.
 

Hari in Canada

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Here is the source information:


The magazine"Inside the Air Force" looks like a US online publication
with access only to subscribers. Hence no URL is available
 

amit21mech

New Member
fieldmarshal said:
its just a way of puttin the pressure on the politicians to give money to induct the f22 an other weapons quicker....they were in india to evaluate the mki and in all probability let the indian win the engagements to make the point to the govt. n the politicans......its nothin more than a gimic.
indian air force has had its butt kicked in each an every battle that it has come across Pakistan.........so first prove ur self n than come n blow iaf trumpits........n buddy dont get me wrong cuz no hard feelins ..as i am just statin the facts nothin more. :smokingc:
Indian Air Force performed very badly in all the wars with pakistan so far just becasue IAF was not at par with PAF in any aspect. But that was almost 33 years back when two forces fought against each other and since then almost all the water of this universe has flown under the bridge thrice. I mean IAF has improved a lot atleast in terms of equipments and birds but Pakistan did little towards this direction. Whenever India and Pakistan are compared in terms of conventional force capability only Pakistani Army finds herself at par with IA. PAF along with PN have been left atleast a decade back by IAF and IN. In any likely war in near future PAF does not have enough balls to prevent IAF getting clear air superiority with in 1 week.
But the MNNA status given by US will certainly help PAF to make herself stronger. In term of pilot training PAF is always at par or better then IAF. They only need new birds and better AWACS to counter India's advantage.
 

adsH

New Member
Forget all this !! the USAF is pleading its case to the Tax payers for new Toys !!!
For god sakes they can get the Israelis to do wonders on a F-15, the Lack of training is being taken out on the AC them selves, being called Obsolete. INdian AF spends more time training its personal in the rite way. the USAF depends alot on other aspect of war to win wars, However if a full scale war Broke out between the two every one knows INdia will do its best but the USAF will win simply because of the Collective Quality of the USAF would be Greater then the IAF's.

Anyways Good job IAF i'm impressed.
 

adsH

New Member
amit21mech said:
fieldmarshal said:
its just a way of puttin the pressure on the politicians to give money to induct the f22 an other weapons quicker....they were in india to evaluate the mki and in all probability let the indian win the engagements to make the point to the govt. n the politicans......its nothin more than a gimic.
indian air force has had its butt kicked in each an every battle that it has come across Pakistan.........so first prove ur self n than come n blow iaf trumpits........n buddy dont get me wrong cuz no hard feelins ..as i am just statin the facts nothin more. :smokingc:
Indian Air Force performed very badly in all the wars with pakistan so far just becasue IAF was not at par with PAF in any aspect. But that was almost 33 years back when two forces fought against each other and since then almost all the water of this universe has flown under the bridge thrice. I mean IAF has improved a lot atleast in terms of equipments and birds but Pakistan did little towards this direction. Whenever India and Pakistan are compared in terms of conventional force capability only Pakistani Army finds herself at par with IA. PAF along with PN have been left atleast a decade back by IAF and IN. In any likely war in near future PAF does not have enough balls to prevent IAF getting clear air superiority with in 1 week.
But the MNNA status given by US will certainly help PAF to make herself stronger. In term of pilot training PAF is always at par or better then IAF. They only need new birds and better AWACS to counter India's advantage.
Hey Amit whats up hope your doing Fine!!

Yeah i agree, but i think IAF seems to be working on trianing alot too these days just watch as soon as the BAE hawks start training, what IAF has to do is reduce Unsuitable Pilot recruitment lIke PAF. PAF and IAF may have corruption on the Top level but when it come to choosing Aircrew like Pilots I know PAF chooses the Most suitable candidate. simply because they have had American Training in these aspects IAF should get involved with Air-force training with the USAF. the USAF has some of the best training programs available. Now i think Pakistan is Working on Birds too Grippens are coming soon, JF-17 would be here as gap filler.new F-16 Block 50/60 are being discussed so alot is happening on the Pakistani Side, New TPS 77 american radars are being inducted. Eeiyree AWACS are under consideration. but i think PAF is still waiting for the US to allow them to Purchase secondhand Updated E3C from the US. PAF has very little to spend so it would do just enough to deter any attack ie the minimal deterrent. IAF seems to be shifting its Defense policy towards teh Chinese now with all the Sophisticated Weaponry being added. the US is indirectly supplying the INdian Armed forces just enough weapons to make them confident against Chinese. now they (US) can't just sell weapons to indians and forget about pakistan so thats why they throw inn high tech equipment to pakistan once in a while. i doubt these equipments would damage the indian arms build up, but would only casue india to think twice before attacking Pakistan. Pakistan is going to be US's most important base, its next to Iran its the only path where the vast central russian Oil can be sold through. Pakistan borders almost all major countries in Asia.
 

Hari in Canada

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A number of above posts above and a lot of Pakistani propoganda in this forum and elsewhereis attributes to PAF superiority in 1965 War and later in 1971 war.

It is just a propaganda. All statistics by PAF's serving men and retired men has been suitably falsified for internal consumption. Facts are otherwise.

I was a Paunjab University stuent in 1965 (final year of engineering) when students of national Cadet Corp were mobilized by the then political leadership for supplies transportation duty to Amritsar front. I saw two air battles in which little Gnat fighters of the Indian Air Force shot down the mighty F-86 fighters of PAF over Jullundar area. As we reached SultanBind at the outskirts of Amritsar, we saw wreakage of two more F-86 fighter of PAF, shot down by Havildar Raju with his Bofor Anti Air Craft Gun. Later, on return to Ambala (our supplies pick-up base) we saw wreakage of two more PAF F-86 which had collided with each other in the air, while trying to locate the Ambala Air Force base.

Again Keelker Brothers (both famour pilots of IAF) shot down three PAF F-86 over Jammu - Sialkote sector and they produced pictures of burning F-86s from their gun sights.

In fact the little agile Gnat was termed as F-86 killer. So much so that the F-104 starfighters of the PAF will not tangle with the Gants, least they loose. Reasons the 20 mm cannon of the agile Gnat was the best gun for a dog fight.

Lies which the PAF and its serving and retired officer tell about the wars know no bound. The myth was broken when Pakistani Army Major turned historian A. H, Amin wrote details of a few 1965 and 1971 encounters which ran counter to the official version. He is the one who confirmed that Pakistan Army abodoned 56 tanks of its First Armoured Division in 1965 at keem Karan to the Indian Army in a battle in which Pakistani had all the advantages. Prior to that the Pakistani propaganda lead its populace to believe that they won the fight.

Again the in 1971 a lone company of soldiers at Longewala held off the determined attack of 45 tanks and 3000 soldiers until the help arrived from the air in form of 4 Hunter aircrafts, which knocked all the tanks out. The battle ground has become so popular that the Imperial British Chief of the Army Staff visted the sight to see for himself, that how a determined small bunch stopped a full regiment of tanks and soldiers for 10 hours before being knocked out. The Pakistani sources always underplay their defeats.

The above was repaeted in the north in Jammu area when a lone young tank commander stood in the way of Pakistani tanks reaching the vital supply line. He knocked out four lead tanks and put an end to Pakistani Army's ambititious plan to cut the Jammu - Pathankote supply line.

Some of the above are eye witness facts. I was not their in Jammu to see where the Pakistani tanks were stopped. But A H amin has confirmed this fact. I did not go Longewala, but the British sources confirm these happenings.

The above subjects lead article's assertion that 90% kill rate of US F-15C was achieved by the IAF in the recent US - India excercise is no surprise. IAF is technically very competent.. The training has competely been changed, which has resulted in high proficiency in the pilots. Surprisingly the Americans have determined that the most fearsome fighter with the IAF is MIG - 21 (modified version). The latter is most maligned fighter because of the high accident rate. It may due to the fact that the plane being too old or sub-standard spare parts used in refurbishing or none of these. It may be entirely due to the fact that this fighter is excecuting training manouveres unheard of in 1965-70, when this plane was designed and produced. The israeli avionics have probably done wonders to it.


Hari Sud in Canada.
 

fieldmarshal

New Member
Mr hari dont believe me or this form........read indepedent accounts of wt happened in 65-71 than u tell us bout it.
N the propaganda that u indians do sayin...as there was a tech diff between iaf n paf so u lost.....wtich is so far from the truth if u look at the invetory of both af's so will realize that iaf was supperior in both number and tech........u indian guys are unbelievabe.......reality hurts but u cant be an ostrige always :)
 

adsH

New Member
Dear Sir i will not argue with you, You are Obviously a veteran of that time and witnessed what you saw "A War"!! and i will not doubt what you saw was not falsified. You are obviously a well read Person. Your assertions seems Localized these wars would require more of a generalized glance to see the over all gains and Loses, which would obviously match your accounts but would give you a different picture of the over all war. PAF lost 40+ F86 in 1971 and there was no Hiding of the Fact , INdia was victorius in 1971 ther was no hiding in that. Pakistan was ripped in half there was no hiding in that. however no one on earth can doubt that India witnessed its Defeat against Pakistan in 1965. Your Hatred against Pakistani generals would be Obvious, after all those generals were the enemy.
 

fieldmarshal

New Member
mr prasad plz accept the BIRD as a tokken of my appriciation for ur exagurations bout indian achivements...........if india is so high n mighty as u seem to suggest with a population of over a billion ppl and a defence budget of gazillions than you guys should be ashemed of comparing mighty india with puny Pakistan..........all ur ambitions of greatness are being foiled by little old PAkistan.................dont get me wrong by i trully feel sorry for the state that ur in. :?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
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:cop :cop

Cool it all. This topic will be frozen if anger management doesn't kick in soon.
 

lalith prasad

Banned Member
iam not comparing india with pakistan,iam just pointing the mistake that you people make in underestimating your opponenets even usa cannot afford to underestimate their opponents.by the way the iaf doctrine is currently about trying to match the chinese and not pakistan so dont worry we havent fallen so low as to compare ourselves with you.and quit the sarcasm next time, all iam doing is to say that never underestimate your opponent wether it is india or kenya,or mongolia or usa.

some text edited out as unnecessary - see mods comment above
 

lalith prasad

Banned Member
And by the way i dont care what you feel about my state, iam proud of my country.
And that's all that matters for me, i have respect for you people but just as you people love ur country i love mine so next time dont make such comments.
 

gf0012-aust

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Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Right, now that we have established that there needs to be mutual respect for everyones nationality in here, let me reiterate: No more slagging off at another persons country in here, no more personal barbs, and no more off topic posts.

Any future posts that fail to address the topic, or go off topic will be deleted and the post frozen until Web decides to unlock it.
 
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