Algeria and South Korea discuss "wheeled armoured vehicles"

[drg]

Right here:
http://www.korea.net/news/news/newsView.asp?serial_no=20071031005
I found this little gem after i noticed an article on Janes mentioning South Korea and Algeria increasing defence co-op, and wondering what on earth they would be co-operating on.

 

[drg]

No one there? Alrighty then...

Ok, I get it. Nobody wants to discuss
So here it is...speculation
The 2 countries are discussing wheeled armoured vehicles. The only such vehicles that South Korea has are BTR-80s. So, South Korea could be aiming to sell the BTR-80s they got from Russia to Algeria. Big jump of logic there, but it is possible.
From the limited things i know about the Sth Korean defence industry, i don't think that they have facilities for the upgrade of older models of BTR (I'm thinking BTR-60s), so again, it points to the possibility of the above.
However, recently some Russian companies released upgrades for the older models (such as BTR-60), as they believed that the BTR-90 would not be selling until the Russian army was equipped with them, thus no export action until that has happened (I know, UAE w Pantsir, and other countries getting Yak-130s while Russia is upgrading its L-39s because they don't have enough Yaks yet etc etc points to the frugality of such an assumption, however, that is what was claimed).

 

[Chrom]

Ok, I get it. Nobody wants to discuss
So here it is...speculation
The 2 countries are discussing wheeled armoured vehicles. The only such vehicles that South Korea has are BTR-80s. So, South Korea could be aiming to sell the BTR-80s they got from Russia to Algeria. Big jump of logic there, but it is possible.
From the limited things i know about the Sth Korean defence industry, i don't think that they have facilities for the upgrade of older models of BTR (I'm thinking BTR-60s), so again, it points to the possibility of the above.
However, recently some Russian companies released upgrades for the older models (such as BTR-60), as they believed that the BTR-90 would not be selling until the Russian army was equipped with them, thus no export action until that has happened (I know, UAE w Pantsir, and other countries getting Yak-130s while Russia is upgrading its L-39s because they don't have enough Yaks yet etc etc points to the frugality of such an assumption, however, that is what was claimed).

BTR-90 cost 4 times BTR-80 - THAT (and not anything else) affect potencial costumers the most. As for S.Korea and Algeria - i'm still more inclined to think they want to develop new IFV. May be with using of standard BTR-90 or BMP-3 turret, may be completely indegenious.

 

[Sgt.Banes]

Ok, I get it. Nobody wants to discuss
So here it is...speculation
The 2 countries are discussing wheeled armoured vehicles. The only such vehicles that South Korea has are BTR-80s. So, South Korea could be aiming to sell the BTR-80s they got from Russia to Algeria. Big jump of logic there, but it is possible.
From the limited things i know about the Sth Korean defence industry, i don't think that they have facilities for the upgrade of older models of BTR (I'm thinking BTR-60s), so again, it points to the possibility of the above.
However, recently some Russian companies released upgrades for the older models (such as BTR-60), as they believed that the BTR-90 would not be selling until the Russian army was equipped with them, thus no export action until that has happened (I know, UAE w Pantsir, and other countries getting Yak-130s while Russia is upgrading its L-39s because they don't have enough Yaks yet etc etc points to the frugality of such an assumption, however, that is what was claimed).

To add on to what Chrom posted, more than likely Algeria and South Korea will probably establish some type of Joint APC/IFV program for both countries. And considering that the article mentioned an increase in economic aid to one another and increase in military hardware research and trade they will develop something that may use components of the BTR-70 or 80 bodies.

 

[eckherl]

I doubt that they will go to the BTR series when implementing technologies for a new wheeled IFV. They are not impressed with their BTR 80s and will use for the most part Western cooperation on technologies with some of their own being implemented.

 

[drg]

New IFV?! Don't think so...

Sorry but I can't logically accept that.
If we were talking about Turkey and South Korea I would be more than willing to accept the possibility. However, when the relationship between the two defence industries seems (at least) to be so embryonic, as that between Algeria and South Korea.
That's why I put forward the speculation above, it would seem more sensible for the two countries to co-operate on something...I don't know...less risky, rather than jumping in the deep end. As I said above, I don't know enough about the Algerian defence industry to know what it is capable of, but looking at the Algerian armed forces equipment, it would obviously be restricted to Russian equipment in the main.
Phew! I'm done!

 

[drg]

I found something searching for details on the Net.
Apparently Janes reported that Samsung Techwin was attempting to sell 500 of its 6X6..."wheeled armoured vehicles" to Algeria. I can't link to the page though, as that is all I can find searching on Google.com.
So there we go.
Case closed.

 

[drg]

Anyways...

That's now Turkey and Algeria "taken care of".
Next stop for South Korean defence apparatchiks issssss:
Chile!

 

[Chrom]

I doubt that they will go to the BTR series when implementing technologies for a new wheeled IFV. They are not impressed with their BTR 80s and will use for the most part Western cooperation on technologies with some of their own being implemented.

There is no equivalent to BTR-90 and BMP-3 turret modules in the west. Simply no. These are an order of magnitude better than anything else, and that even disregarding very competitive price. Ofc, some components may be upgraded - for example, better TI might be installed. But it is all part of modular design.

That said, there are little point to copy BTR-80 now. There are better hulls already developed.


P.S. To say they are impressed with BTR-80 is like impressed with M113. They are too old.

 

[eckherl]

There is no equivalent to BTR-90 and BMP-3 turret modules in the west. Simply no. These are an order of magnitude better than anything else, and that even disregarding very competitive price. Ofc, some components may be upgraded - for example, better TI might be installed. But it is all part of modular design.

That said, there are little point to copy BTR-80 now. There are better hulls already developed.


P.S. To say they are impressed with BTR-80 is like impressed with M113. They are too old.

It really is not a age factor for their viewpoints on the BTR series but design layout of the hull, turret configuration brings many potential possiblities to the table so why do you think Russian versions are better, are you stating that ROK cannot work with a West European company and design something better.

 

[Chrom]

It really is not a age factor for their viewpoints on the BTR series but design layout of the hull, turret configuration brings many potential possiblities to the table so why do you think Russian versions are better, are you stating that ROK cannot work with a West European company and design something better.

Of course, from all points of view BTR-80 IS OLD! Be it design or something else.

Yes, i dont think ROK can work something similar to "Bakcha" turret. At least, not soon and not for sane price. After all, West couldnt develop equivalent for itself - why it should be easy for ROK?
Add to that russian advances in ERA, APS and guided weapons - and here you go.

 

[eckherl]

Of course, from all points of view BTR-80 IS OLD! Be it design or something else.

Yes, i dont think ROK can work something similar to "Bakcha" turret. At least, not soon and not for sane price. After all, West couldnt develop equivalent for itself - why it should be easy for ROK?
Add to that russian advances in ERA, APS and guided weapons - and here you go.

And what is so special about the Bakcha turret, you are stating that only Russia has the capabilities and advancements to build a better vehicle, that is pure speculation on your part.

 

[Chrom]

And what is so special about the Bakcha turret, you are stating that only Russia has the capabilities and advancements to build a better vehicle, that is pure speculation on your part.

I dont say only Russia have capabilities and technical expertise. But given what other countries didnt developed anything close - they would need to start developing of such turret from scratch. Low-velocity compact gun, autoloader, suitable ammo, turret itself, ATGM's - at very least. A lot of money and quite much time needed. Keep im mind, "Backha" is already developed, price is fair, and moreover, developed specifically with ability to be installed on ANY vehicle.

With ERA it is even more pronounced - no doubts what russian examples are far ahead of current West examples. Here i'm inclined to think what West dont have enouth experience to build ERA as good as russian. Again, given enouth time and money West will surery catch up - just not yet.

 

[eckherl]

I dont say only Russia have capabilities and technical expertise. But given what other countries didnt developed anything close - they would need to start developing of such turret from scratch. Low-velocity compact gun, autoloader, suitable ammo, turret itself, ATGM's - at very least. A lot of money and quite much time needed. Keep im mind, "Backha" is already developed, price is fair, and moreover, developed specifically with ability to be installed on ANY vehicle.

With ERA it is even more pronounced - no doubts what russian examples are far ahead of current West examples. Here i'm inclined to think what West dont have enouth experience to build ERA as good as russian. Again, given enouth time and money West will surery catch up - just not yet.

It is basically a upgraded BMP 2 turret that you are talking about here, the reason why the West did not invest alot of time and effort into wheeled IFV vehicles is due to different priorities, are you under the assumption that vehicles with the likes of the German Luches were not advanced during their day. You cannot use the argument that Russia holds all the knowledge when it comes to ERA, those secrets were let out along time ago and they have most likely lost their edge in this field due to funding.

 

[Chrom]

It is basically a upgraded BMP 2 turret that you are talking about here, the reason why the West did not invest alot of time and effort into wheeled IFV vehicles is due to different priorities, are you under the assumption that vehicles with the likes of the German Luches were not advanced during their day. You cannot use the argument that Russia holds all the knowledge when it comes to ERA, those secrets were let out along time ago and they have most likely lost their edge in this field due to funding.

Just like with "Bakcha" turret, "West got a different priorities". And while West can change priorities and give funds, new turret (or ERA) will not magically appear in 6 months. 9 womens cant born a kind in 1 month... They will still need a 9... ESPECEALLY while we are talking about new SK vehicle - SK will NOT spends ungodly ammount of funds to speed up joint with West development of indegenious turret comparable with "Bakcha". SK will rather buy "Backha" itself for a small fraction of that price, or develop new turrent joint with Russians on "Bakcha" base. Or install inferior home-made turret based on West technologies...

Same situation is with ERA - while funding in 90x was indeed low, it was probably still higher than USA ERA funding in 90x. "Different priorities"... And in 200x there was already some funding in russian hands - and new ERA proposals prove it...

P.S. Why only "wheeled vehicles"? BMP-3 turret have no equivalent between tracked IFV's as well...

 

[eckherl]

Just like with "Bakcha" turret, "West got a different priorities". And while West can change priorities and give funds, new turret (or ERA) will not magically appear in 6 months. 9 womens cant born a kind in 1 month... They will still need a 9... ESPECEALLY while we are talking about new SK vehicle - SK will NOT spends ungodly ammount of funds to speed up joint with West development of indegenious turret comparable with "Bakcha". SK will rather buy "Backha" itself for a small fraction of that price, or develop new turrent joint with Russians on "Bakcha" base. Or install inferior home-made turret based on West technologies...

Same situation is with ERA - while funding in 90x was indeed low, it was probably still higher than USA ERA funding in 90x. "Different priorities"... And in 200x there was already some funding in russian hands - and new ERA proposals prove it...

P.S. Why only "wheeled vehicles"? BMP-3 turret have no equivalent between tracked IFV's as well...

Chrom - do you know for a fact that ROK wants to implement this turret(Bakcha) on any possible future wheeled vehicle design, also this has already been designed by the Russians thus making it easy for Algeria to just purchase this design from them, or do you think that they feel that the hull is rather limited and all cooperation will be in a new hull design.

 

[Chrom]

Chrom - do you know for a fact that ROK wants to implement this turret(Bakcha) on any possible future wheeled vehicle design, also this has already been designed by the Russians thus making it easy for Algeria to just purchase this design from them, or do you think that they feel that the hull is rather limited and all cooperation will be in a new hull design.

BMP-3 / BTR-80 hulls are rather limited (or better to say they have major compromisses to achieve high protection and swim for such low wieght) and i think ROK want new hull. Bakcha itself is very good and i'm sure ROK very seriosly consider it.

 

[eckherl]

BMP-3 / BTR-80 hulls are rather limited (or better to say they have major compromisses to achieve high protection and swim for such low wieght) and i think ROK want new hull. Bakcha itself is very good and i'm sure ROK very seriosly consider it.

We will just have to waite and see, for their tracked IFV K300 they went with a 40mm bofors auto cannon.

 

[tae1822]

contenders?

If and when S.K does send a wheeled/tracked armored vehicle to Algiers it might be either/or :
NIFV
k-200
BTR-80's
Barracuda [licensed copy of the tm-170]
KM-900/901 [copy of the fiat 6614]
Rotem's new armored car 6x6,8x8
DoosanInfracore's 6x6,8x8
Samsung Techwin's 6x6

I guess the barracuda, km900/901 and the bottom 3 are top contenders unless s.k wants to get rid of its btrs...