Airpower shift in Central Africa? -Nigeria

[Brit]

According to Air Forces Monthly, Nigeria is probably buying J-8II Finback fighters from China.

This seems an odd choice tto me -the Finback is generally thought of as akin to Mig23 and very much an "old style" interceptor(?). Or am I missing something about its capabilities?

J-8II:
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http://tinypic.com/72d854.jpg

The best AAM that it can carry (that China can sell?) is the PL-10 which is an Aspide clone. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/pl-10_1.jpg hardly tomorrow's weapon...

Why would Nigeria choose he J8?

 

[agent-0011]

J-8II is the best fighter plane ever made, when pioleted by best trained chinese air force piolet it will be invenceable

 

[gf0012-aust]

At a pinch, I'd say that you're looking at it from the wrong angle.

If its a Mig23 equivalent, then they will be more interested in AG weaps than AA weaps.

It all hinges on what Nigerias perceived threat is - and they seem to have a preference or pre-occupation with dealing with ground threats than air threats.

It's probably the cheapest mud plane they could get.

 

[gf0012-aust]

J-8II is the best fighter plane ever made, when pioleted by best trained chinese air force piolet it will be invenceable

matey that kind of comment is just unnecessary and silly in here. any number of 3rd generation let alone 4th or 5th generation fixed wing combat aircraft are superior across a broad range of missions.

try and keep the comments logical and based on fact. that kind of comment just invites less charitable responses from some who are willing to provide technical info to "smite" your response.


Also, please remember the rule on here regarding one liner, "throw away" comments.

 

[agent-0011]

matey that kind of comment is just unnecessary and silly in here. any number of 3rd generation let alone 4th or 5th generation fixed wing combat aircraft are superior across a broad range of missions.

try and keep the comments logical and based on fact. that kind of comment just invites less charitable responses from some who are willing to provide technical info to "smite" your response.


Also, please remember the rule on here regarding one liner, "throw away" comments.

LOL lighten up buddy just a sarcastic joke, bit sad really that you did not get it.

Mod edit: Actually, that kind of comment has passed as being serious by some posters in the past. I do have a sense of humour, some in here (and you don't have to trawl through the posts too far to find examples) don't. They will accept the punchline as being serious.


Try and make it obvious in future by adding the appropriate emoticon. It's not hard. It's also encumbent on you to make it obvious so that we don't end up with some of the more indignant members also taking you at face value.

BTW, the one liner rule still applies on "throw away" comments.

 

[Brit]

At a pinch, I'd say that you're looking at it from the wrong angle.

If its a Mig23 equivalent, then they will be more interested in AG weaps than AA weaps.

It all hinges on what Nigerias perceived threat is - and they seem to have a preference or pre-occupation with dealing with ground threats than air threats.

It's probably the cheapest mud plane they could get.

Going by guess and logic (J-8II is not a system I know much about) I wouldn't have thought that it would be either good or cheap as a attack fighter -surely not compared to the J-5 Fantan, which can be got second hand and has previously been exported (Pakistan). The J-5 is far better suited. Or there's the far more capable JH-7 (http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/groundattack/jh7.asp). And then there are numerous non-Chinese options which seem better suited for AG, notably Su-25 and Mig-27, both of which are available second hand. Or second hand Mirage F1s. I stress second hand options because of the price factor which is generally a factor with selecting Chinese equipments.

It is noteworthy that PLAN, the major F8II user, seems only to use them for interception.

Whilst these J-8IIs may be the "advanced" export 'M' model, thats main selling point is that it is designed to be interoperable with Russian AAMs* etc which, from my armchair, makes it less desirable to the Nigerians as they would have to maintain relations with both Russia and China in order to maintain spares and weapons stocks -unless China has the ok from Russia to supply Russian weapons(?).

*AA-11 Archer and AA-10 Alamo. Possibly AA-12 Adder.


This whole Nigeria purchase is a bit of an enigma.

Idle speculation. Maybe, just maybe, the J-8II can be fitted to carry an anti-ship missile (C802k for example) and is therefore a cheaper option than the Jh-7 for a land based naval fighter with a meaningful (but not great) general interception ability over land. Nigeria's Navy seems to be quite important to them stragically.

 

[pshamim]

Apologise for saying this. Purchases by Nigerians usually depend where they can get the largest kickback. I know, I spent 3 years in Lagos as the Regional Manager for a British Company.

 

[kashifshahzad]

Apologise for saying this. Purchases by Nigerians usually depend where they can get the largest kickback. I know, I spent 3 years in Lagos as the Regional Manager for a British Company.

This means that they will get Kickback from the Chineese other countries were also buying AC's from China dosent it mean that those countries were also involved in getting Kickbacks

 

[pshamim]

This means that they will get Kickback from the Chineese other countries were also buying AC's from China dosent it mean that those countries were also involved in getting Kickbacks

Kashif, It is not the Chinese. It is Nigerians, I am talking about. It is how they make most of the deals.

 

[Brit]

It is widely agreed that Nigeria is the second most corrupt government in the world. I forget who comes first. Russia is also high up the list.

Remember that the Germans brought Starfighter as oposed to the British option (Saunders-Roe SR.177; http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v1/v1n2/saro177.html) because of individuals in the German selection process getting bribes from Lockheed). So this sort thing is not new in international arms dealing. It is quite possible that some Nigerian airforce/government official can be swayed to by Finback as oposed to 'aircraft x' simply by a nice villa and some gold watches.... sorry.

 

[centurion_ue]

Apologise for saying this. Purchases by Nigerians usually depend where they can get the largest kickback. I know, I spent 3 years in Lagos as the Regional Manager for a British Company.

as a nigerian,i'm offended by what you've just said.i accept that we have a problem with corruption,but u seem to have 4gotten the present government is fighting it head-on.things have changed down here.
one more thing,b4 a defense contract-such as the purchase of new combat aircraft for example-is excecuted,it MUST pass thru the due-process office(they also work hand-in-hand with TRADOC) so as to ensure that the price wasn't inflated and we get what we asked for.so please,get your facts straight.

 

[Rich]

as a nigerian,i'm offended by what you've just said.i accept that we have a problem with corruption,but u seem to have 4gotten the present government is fighting it head-on.things have changed down here.
one more thing,b4 a defense contract-such as the purchase of new combat aircraft for example-is excecuted,it MUST pass thru the due-process office(they also work hand-in-hand with TRADOC) so as to ensure that the price wasn't inflated and we get what we asked for.so please,get your facts straight.

Centurion I'd appreciate if you used standard type because some of us here are getting kinda old and dont see so well anymore.

If you say your Govt. is making headway with corruption then I'll take your word for it. Africa has been one of the stops Ive made on my world tours and I found corruption not only widespread but systemic. Mind you, on a case by case basis, Yank or Euro Politicians can be world class when it comes to thieving.

Aircraft that can deliver CAS have always been popular on the continent, including helicopters. Most nations there are far more worried about rebel groups and rioting tribes then they are high tech air to air superiority dances. In the Angolan war the FAPA-DAA were pretty infamous for turning all their MIG-21, 23s, and early SUs, into ground pounders.

On the whole, and not counting the RSA, the subcontinent African air forces aren't worth a damn talent wise and its far easier and cheaper teaching them to strafe then to use their airplanes in the multi-roles they were designed for. The Arabs weren't much better tho they have made progress, at least the ones with western equipment and access to western training.

I have no doubt the sub-continent could develop excellent pilots, and use their systems better, if they made the effort and spent the money. But they never have.

 

[centurion_ue]

rich,u know,i'm not really suprised with what you've just said.and i don't blame you.what most western news agencies show most of the time are the wars and other things that've gone wrong in some countries down here,without showing the progress that most've made.what you simply do is to just bunch all african countries-`xcept south africa ofcourse- together as s@$tholes(well,i agree we still behind).like i said b4,we're still battling corruption,and we still have a very long way to go,but at least the present govt is doing is verry best.in the past years,anyone,especially politicians that were involved in stealing frm the public treasury,have bn arrested and prosecuted,and the economic sector is being purged.but hey,no one in the west hears this.

you seem to have forgotten this:
-this country is blessed with oil and a lot of resources.so we have the right,as any other country in this world whether rich or poor, guard our airspace,& if possible,defend that of our fellow neigbhours (that's if they request our help) against our enemies( yes,we have a few,whether you believe it or not.besides,not everyone that smiles with you is your friend), or countrys that may decide to intrude.

one more thing:
On the whole, and not counting the RSA, the subcontinent African air forces aren't worth a damn talent wise and its far easier and cheaper teaching them to strafe then to use their airplanes in the multi-roles they were designed for. The Arabs weren't much better tho they have made progress, at least the ones with western equipment and access to western training.

now,even though we're not as high-tech as some countries,i am very proud of my country's military.so your statement above is simply an insult.yes,we don't have the cool gears that your countries have.but i don't see the difference btw our pilots and yours.and don't put us in same league with arab pilots-we have a diffrent mindset of our own.besides if we're not dat talented,then i think u guys are also in the same shoe as us cos we train in western countries and we use tactics learnt.

 

[Rich]

what you simply do is to just bunch all african countries-`xcept south africa ofcourse- together as s@$tholes(well,i agree we still behind).like i said b4,we're still battling corruption,and we still have a very long way to go,but at least the present govt is doing is verry best.in the past years,anyone,especially politicians that were involved in stealing frm the public treasury,have bn arrested and prosecuted,and the economic sector is being purged.but hey,no one in the west hears this.

I never called anyone a "s@$tholes". Believe me we in the west have theives among Politicians and "power people" that are world class. Ive been in 3rd world countries that have Political systems more legit then the Yank city I Police in. I am not "talking down" to anyone here.

There are many factors in Africa that stacked the odds against the people living there. Colonialism, Imperialism, exploitation, racism, super power'ism...ect. Many of these are faults and sins that lay at the doorstep of non-African nations.

For the record let me say that my heart lies in Africa. I wish I could spend the rest of my life there and be buried there. I love the place.

you seem to have forgotten this:
-this country is blessed with oil and a lot of resource's we have the right,as any other country in this world whether rich or poor, guard our airspace,& if possible,defend that of our fellow neigbhours (that's if they request our help) against our enemies( yes,we have a few,whether you believe it or not.besides,not everyone that smiles with you is your friend), or countrys that may decide to intrude.

Of course you do. Who said you didn't?

now,even though we're not as high-tech as some countries,i am very proud of my country's military.so your statement above is simply an insult.yes,we don't have the cool gears that your countries have.but i don't see the difference btw our pilots and yours.and don't put us in same league with arab pilots-we have a diffrent mindset of our own.besides if we're not dat talented,then i think u guys are also in the same shoe as us cos we train in western countries and we use tactics learnt.

No it wasnt an "insult". It was an objective analysis on my part. Or at least an honest attempt. In much the same way as when I criticize my own country, or its military. The fact that African air forces are not up to western standards is simply fact. And If you read what I posted then you saw that these kinds of problems are fixable if enough resources and talent is pointed at the issue.

Actually its fairly well known that Africans make excellent soldiers when given proper leadership, resources, and training.

Nobody is on a superiority trip here my friend. And you should be proud of your country and its armed forces.

 

[contedicavour]

Guys, since you have resurrected this old thread, could you use it to discuss updated news on the Nigerian air force instead of debating about corruption ... ?

I've read recently that the Nigerian MB339s will be updated by Aermacchi to be fully operational again. There are also rumours about refitting the G222s and C130s troop carriers.
What about the Jaguars and MIG21s and Alpha Jets ?

cheers