AFP attack helicopter acquisition

[adroth]

The Armed Forces of the Philippines has shortlisted the attack helicopters that it plans on purchasing this year. These will not be brand new birds, but refurbished assets -- with an emphasis on night fighting capability.

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/storypage.aspx?StoryId=61372

The following are on the list

- AH-1 Cobras (US)
- Hind (Russia)
- An unspecified French helicopter
- Agusta Westland (Italy)
- Phoenix (?) (China)

Not sure if the "Phoenix" is the WZ-10 or the Z-9.

IMHO, we're better off with a version of the AH-1 that shares parts with the Huey II. This will go a long way to simplifying our logistics.

 

[Waylander]

Could the French one be the Tiger?
As long as I know there is no other real "French" attack helicopter.

 

[Gladius]

The Tiger would be too expensive. Another possibility could be the military version of the Panther, buf if (as the article said) we are talking about used helos, maybe the French have some Gazelles stored over there.

The problem will be the money, only 4,3 Million US$ each helo, is not too much. And not many helos are available to sale on second hand basis.

The article is very vage, without mention all the concrete helos considered, only constructors. But I can't see the Italian Army selling at donation price six Mangusta, or the French Armee six Tiger HAP.

Without info about the chinesse side. IMHO the most probably option for this deal would be a USA solution. They must have some AH-1F ex-Army stored (from 1999-2001 when they were finaly retired) and considering the precedents (in 2001 a C-130 & 100 trucks and two years later 30 UH-1H were donated to the Philippine) is possible that 6 Cobras were shipped with a minimal price to finance their revisions and repairs with perhaps a reasonable quantity of spare parts and weaponry.

 

[Magoo]

There's literally hundreds of AH-1s in storage at AMARC which would fit nicely into the PAF OOB, especially as it already operates regenerated UH-1H IIs. These could easily be regenerated and refurbed for the money PAF is looking at.

Magoo

 

[JBodnar39]

On a little different note; I know that the Phillipines Army/Af has quite a number of UH-1's in inventory - but how many are actually in service?

 

[tphuang]

The Armed Forces of the Philippines has shortlisted the attack helicopters that it plans on purchasing this year. These will not be brand new birds, but refurbished assets -- with an emphasis on night fighting capability.

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/storypage.aspx?StoryId=61372

The following are on the list

- AH-1 Cobras (US)
- Hind (Russia)
- An unspecified French helicopter
- Agusta Westland (Italy)
- Phoenix (?) (China)

Not sure if the "Phoenix" is the WZ-10 or the Z-9.

IMHO, we're better off with a version of the AH-1 that shares parts with the Huey II. This will go a long way to simplifying our logistics.

I was quite surprised when I read this "phoenix" helicopter. I'm assuming it would have to be Z-9G, since WZ-10 hasn't even entered mass production in China yet. And with the amount of money they were willing to pay for each helicopter, you can probably get brand new Z-9G units.

 

[aaaditya]

The Armed Forces of the Philippines has shortlisted the attack helicopters that it plans on purchasing this year. These will not be brand new birds, but refurbished assets -- with an emphasis on night fighting capability.

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/storypage.aspx?StoryId=61372

The following are on the list

- AH-1 Cobras (US)
- Hind (Russia)
- An unspecified French helicopter
- Agusta Westland (Italy)
- Phoenix (?) (China)

Not sure if the "Phoenix" is the WZ-10 or the Z-9.

IMHO, we're better off with a version of the AH-1 that shares parts with the Huey II. This will go a long way to simplifying our logistics.

i cant understand why they are even bothering to look at hind when the havoc is available?

 

[Waylander]

Money?
You get a lot HInds for the money and they should be enough for the requirements of the Philippines.
And the transport capability of the Hind is a huge plus especially for a country like the Philippines with its islands and difficult terrain.

 

[adroth]

On a little different note; I know that the Phillipines Army/Af has quite a number of UH-1's in inventory

The Philippine Army Aviation Battalion only has small fixed wing transport aircraft. No helicopters.

but how many are actually in service?

Over the years, roughly 120 hueys have been delivered to the Philippine Air Force (PAF). Its been estimated that 45 remain operational at any given time. If funds are provided, it would be safe to say that that number could actually climb. The PAF's maintenance equipment for the type is pretty good -- as evidenced by the completely-in-house conversion of one UH-1 to the Huey II standard. We saved a lot of moolah on certification expenses on that one.

 

[adroth]

Money?
You get a lot HInds for the money and they should be enough for the requirements of the Philippines.
And the transport capability of the Hind is a huge plus especially for a country like the Philippines with its islands and difficult terrain.

Hit the nail right on the head.

It was originally a toss up between brand new MD520s (perhaps even 530s) or refurbished attack choppers. I guess they've moved forward with the latter idea.

 

[contedicavour]

Refurbished Hind MI24 or MI35 would be the best value for money option... or otherwise modernized Cobras that the USMC may have in stock.
The Gazelles are too used up and there are no available Mangusta or Tiger for second hand purchases.

cheers

 

[turin]

Can someone throw in a price for new Mi-35M helos? For example, how much is Venezuela paying? They bought ten Mi-35 in total, but I never read about the price per unit.

 

[Gladius]

Can someone throw in a price for new Mi-35M helos? For example, how much is Venezuela paying? They bought ten Mi-35 in total, but I never read about the price per unit.

IIRC the helos bought by Venezuela were included on three diferent contracts. The first two of those signed under the Pemon Project (3+5), and the third was a joint contract with the fighters Su-30.
The second contract (and the only signed exclusively for this helo) for five Mi-35M2 was signed on June 2005 for five helicopters with a price per unit of 16,2 Million US$.

With the another two contracts we haven't unitarian price for the helos, only the total contract figures.
A contract signed on May 2005 for 6 Mi-17V5, 3 Mi-35M and 1 Mi-26T, with a total cost declared of 120 Million US$.
The Su-30 contract for 24 fighters, 14 Mi-17V5, 2 Mi-35M and 2 Mi-26T, with an announced price around the Billion US$.

 

[Lawman]

How about the UH-1 Bushranger type of gunship? For the PAF it would make a lot of sense, and offer almost complete commonality with the rest of the fleet. They should be capable of carrying a good load of rockets, machine guns etc... Though not as potent as a Cobra or Hind, they would be cheap, and unlikely to end up as hangar queens, especially due to variable budgets...

 

[adroth]

How about the UH-1 Bushranger type of gunship? For the PAF it would make a lot of sense, and offer almost complete commonality with the rest of the fleet. They should be capable of carrying a good load of rockets, machine guns etc... Though not as potent as a Cobra or Hind, they would be cheap, and unlikely to end up as hangar queens, especially due to variable budgets...

Night attack capability is a key criteria in the selection of these choppers.
What sort of capabilities do the Bushrangers have in this regard?

Our MD520s are serving us well for day-time use. But we can't put additional gear on them without compromising the payload.

 

[Lawman]

Well, night attack capability shouldn't be a problem - you simply fit them with a good FLIR system, like the Britestar fitted to the ARH-70. When I mentioned the Bushranger, I was not actually suggesting the '60s spec original, but rather a modern equivalent. Using a Huey II base, it should be capable of carrying a good warload, and with modern FLIR and glass cockpit, it should be a good gunship. Basically, a Huey is not the most advanced solution, but that is also its biggest attraction!

 

[adroth]

Well, night attack capability shouldn't be a problem - you simply fit them with a good FLIR system, like the Britestar fitted to the ARH-70. When I mentioned the Bushranger, I was not actually suggesting the '60s spec original, but rather a modern equivalent. Using a Huey II base, it should be capable of carrying a good warload, and with modern FLIR and glass cockpit, it should be a good gunship. Basically, a Huey is not the most advanced solution, but that is also its biggest attraction!

The PAF is currently looking for an existing solution -- and a reconditioned one at that. Its a fast and dirty tack that will have the birds flying within the year.

Am not sure why the PAF didn't opt to just attach FLIR systems on our existing Hueys and Huey IIs.

 

[adroth]

There is now a very strong possibility that the PAF will be getting Chinese Z-9G helicopters for this.

I was very disappointed with this, since I had been rooting for the AH-1. But after scrounging for information about this aircraft, things do not look as bad as I originally thought.

Some facts:

The Z-9G is essentially the Eurocopter Dauphin, manufactured under license. Its been manufactured in China since the 80s

The company that manufactured the Z-9, Harbin Aircraft, is 61% owned by Eurocopter, 15% by a Singaporean company, with the rest being Chinese owned

Harbin has been renamed Hafei Aviation Industry Co, which as of 2007, is producing important components for the Boeing 787 Dreamliner.

 

[gf0012-aust]

The Z-9G is essentially the Eurocopter Dauphin, manufactured under license. Its been manufactured in China since the 80s

The company that manufactured the Z-9, Harbin Aircraft, is 61% owned by Eurocopter, 15% by a Singaporean company, with the rest being Chinese owned

if its the Z9, then main issue will be what engine. The USCG re-engine programme resulted in a partially compromised platform - one wonders whether PAF would get a chinese or euro engine in place.

 

[adroth]

if its the Z9, then main issue will be what engine. The USCG re-engine programme resulted in a partially compromised platform - one wonders whether PAF would get a chinese or euro engine in place.

Good question.

Since we don't exactly have the budget to dictate what engine goes into these birds, we'll probably get them "as-produced".

Sinodefence.com reports that the basic Z-9 (or Zhi-9, short for zhishengji) use two Turbomeca Arriel-1C1 engines, manufactured in China as the Wozhou-8A (WZ-8A).

Does anyone here have information about the reliability of these particular engines?

There are lots of articles about the overall quality of Chinese equipment. But the makers of the Z-9 are not your run-of-the-mill Chinese company. Its actually the Asian subsidiary of Eurocopter -- and therefore benefits from foreign oversight.