Aerial IFV Projects (Mi-40/42)

[SkolZkiy]

There is a project Mi-40 - heavily defended heli VBMP(ВБМП - вертолет боевая машина пехоты). I supposed that it will replace Hinds and may in some situations Mi-8 in Ruarmy.
Fairly it's just a project, there are no even rumors about it, but just now we have at least Hind for such operations and even Mi-8 are defended enough well against ballistic weapons.
I know that in Afganistan heavily damaged Mi-8 and Mi-24 returned to bases.
And also I know that US army and EU armies do not make their helis so defended as Hind or even as Mi-8 of last modifications. Can somebody answer why is this so? becuase for it is very strange - helis always flies in dangerous areas were air-superity is not so important because a guy with such SA as Igla and Strela and big calibre machineguns are the main enemies of helis.
i think that that Mi-40 must be built and replace Hind, this is very important class of helis.

 

[Feanor]

You mean this one?

http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/mi-40.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-40

As far as I can tell the project is dead. The Mi-24 is being replaced mostly by the Mi-28. Partially by the Ka-52.

 

[SkolZkiy]

Yes, but really I want to talk perspictives of such clas of helis.
and also why US and EU helis aren't defended with armor in such way as Hind or even Mi-8.
by the way Mi-28N will not totally replace Mi-24 because there is still a need in RuArmy for such helis.
About Mi-40 - I know that the project is almost dead.
And Feanor if you can please change the name of thread to something more capable, sory for my mistake.

 

[Vajt]

I always saw a useful value for this type of helicopter...an armed and armored aerial troop transport. Not sure why Russia stopped developing them as there is still a good use for this type of machine, specially with the type of warfare now being fought which requires quick insertion of troops and many times coming under fire and needing fire support. A dedicated attack aircraft could provide further weapon support but they are not able to carry assault troops. A transport aircraft by itself, typically lacks the protection, electronics and heavier weapons that a Mi-24/Mi-40/Mi-42 could carry.

There was a forum where I saw an Israeli project looking to turn a Blackhawk helicopter into a Western Mi-24. It would carry small winglets where heavier weapons could be carried, an under chin 20mm gun and some lightweight (probably ceramic) armor protection added to key areas. Also saw some uparmored and uparmed versions of the Puma/Super Puma. Mi-17 and a South African company doing fine work in modernizing Mi-24s. But again, there are more compromises since you are adding to a design meant purely for transport instead of having a dedicated design that from the beginning was meant for both roles.

I know that Russia is still producing upgraded Mi-24 (Mi-35) but I wonder if they are reaching their design limitations. These helicopters are still being purchased so there must be a useful need, specially for a nation that can't afford a dedicated attack helicopter but could use one that is between a transport and attack aircraft. Not everyone needs an Apache or Ka-52 or Mi-28, but the multi-use capability of a Mi-24 (or newer version) could make it a much more tempting aircraft for many nations.

-----JT-----

 

[Feanor]

Thread renamed. Given the success of the Hinds series, I am indeed surprised that no follow-up has been developed. The latest Mi-35M are quite impressive, but they're export variants. The Mi-40/42 project was an interesting concept. It's a shame it's dead at the moment.

 

[SkolZkiy]

I saw an interview on one Russian federal channel - one of the main constructors or Mil's CB (КБ им. Миля) said that they have worked on a heli based on Mi-28N and which he called VBMP (ВБМП). He didn't mention codename or code of this project but he said that all this is done by their own resources without any state orders.

 

[dragonfire]

I know that in Afganistan heavily damaged Mi-8 and Mi-24 returned to bases.

Wasn't tht befor the Stingers, after stinger deployment heavy losses happened to the heli fleet, so in the modern context how releveant is armour vis a via speed (considering armour increases bulkk and decreases speed). esp since more massive availability of MANPADS. The western systems like apache etc dont have too much armour yet have found heavy one sided success in operations, whereas the hind brings to mind a 'gun ship' kind of vision due to its size, nevertheless a new attack heli from russian stable is long overdue

 

[SkolZkiy]

are you sure that they are so successful?? Look at Afganistan now - enough often helis are hit. And this is only what press knows.
About stingers - it depended on where the missile hit heli. Even with one engine Mi-24 could return to base or at least land accidently (but in mountains it is very very difficult).
I mean that western transport and combat-transport helis are not defended even against machineguns 7.62 while Ru helis are.

 

[dragonfire]

are you sure that they are so successful?? Look at Afganistan now - enough often helis are hit. And this is only what press knows.
About stingers - it depended on where the missile hit heli. Even with one engine Mi-24 could return to base or at least land accidently (but in mountains it is very very difficult).
I mean that western transport and combat-transport helis are not defended even against machineguns 7.62 while Ru helis are.

If you ask me the modern attack helicopter should be able to engage enemy targets like tank and other enemy assets from a decent comfortable distance, taking on fire would be a wrong logic in current circumstances, one would need a silent chopper with advanced radar, targeting, aramement and fire control systems able unleash a barrage of attack - oh and it should absolutely have night flying and targeting capabilitites, while a moderate armour would not hurt

 

[Feanor]

You still can't do much with all your advanced sensors, if you have an insurgent hiding in a cave, that only pops out when you fly by, and shoots of a ManPADS.

 

[SkolZkiy]

DragonFire I'm talking not about a great battle between two big armies. I'm talking about battle actions against partizans like in Afgan, in mountains where helis are flying enough low to be hit with simple assault rifles and small calibre machineguns (7.62). and in this situation armor of heli is a very important place. may be these types of weapons cannot seriously damage heli but they can kill people who are in them =)

 

[dragonfire]

You still can't do much with all your advanced sensors, if you have an insurgent hiding in a cave, that only pops out when you fly by, and shoots of a ManPADS.

DragonFire I'm talking not about a great battle between two big armies. I'm talking about battle actions against partizans like in Afgan, in mountains where helis are flying enough low to be hit with simple assault rifles and small calibre machineguns (7.62). and in this situation armor of heli is a very important place. may be these types of weapons cannot seriously damage heli but they can kill people who are in them =)

Thts wht i said in my earlier post a MANPADS like Stinger could easily down even an armoured attack heli which was the case with Stingers in Afganistan in the hands of the Afganis used against the ussr/russian forces.

Its a question of strategy really the mission requirements should dictate the kind of attack heli to be used, because one can use flares and other counter measures against a heat seaking missile but wht about protecting the tail rotor from small arms fire (which is highly susceptible) as well as potecting the heli from a RPG at short ranges like the black hawks downed in Somalia in'93

So the dangers are there in both an open backyard / mountain /desert region as well urban/semi urban regions when one considers the threat from small units using MANPADS and RPGs against low flying helis, however world millitaries are generaly opting for fast flying less manpower intensive all weather and night flying capable crafts like the Apaches and the Mi-28 than the earlier Hind varities of heavy gunship kind of helis

- my 2 rupees worth

 

[SkolZkiy]

I mentioned higher that Stinger hit of Mi-24 or even sometimes Mi-8 is not 100% lethal. because engines and other most important aggregates are defended with less important and armor.

 

[dragonfire]

Wouldnt tht be a poor strategy - taking hits from stingers and other ManPADS allowing for the fact tht always they are not always 100% lethal - thts a huge risk to take on accountof a costly craft to be downed the lives of personnel being risked and also giving a chance for the craft to fall into the wrong hands as well as the morale and politically issues, everytime a heli is lost in Afganistan or Iraq there are further bouts of anti-war demonstrations in US

 

[Feanor]

You're missing the point. The point is that in a similar situation, a COIN environment, a Hind is typically more likely to survive an RPG hit then say an Apache.

 

[Vajt]

Its a question of strategy really the mission requirements should dictate the kind of attack heli to be used, because one can use flares and other counter measures against a heat seaking missile but wht about protecting the tail rotor from small arms fire (which is highly susceptible) as well as potecting the heli from a RPG at short ranges like the black hawks downed in Somalia in'93

That's probably why the more advanced M-42 design used the NOTAR concept, removing one of the big vulnerable points of the helicopter, it's tail rotor. Would still be interesting if Russia decides to put funding on this project and begin developing it again.

http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/mi-42.php


Also wondering why the Russians didn't further pursue Kamov factory's Ka-25F as the co-axial rotor design would also eliminate the tail rotor vulnerability.

http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/ka-25f.php

-----JT-----

 

[Feanor]

I suspect the Hind may have had better performance then the Ka-25F. Right now the Ka-52 has received an order for 30 units to be delivered over the next several years.

 

[dragonfire]

You're missing the point. The point is that in a similar situation, a COIN environment, a Hind is typically more likely to survive an RPG hit then say an Apache.

yeah the Hind looks definetely more sturdy in a COIN operation, iwas comparing some stats and the speed element is actualy not so diff Hind vs. Longbow at top speed may 30-60 kms/hr diff (apache is slightly faster)

but if one had to compare - then perhaps the longbows should be compared to the mi-28s or the Ka-52s and in tht case which one would be better armoured

Again perhaps one should use the huge hinds as those beasts could really initmidate irregular force element on account of its sheer size and capability

 

[Feanor]

We can't really compare the Hind, as a whole to anything. It's almost completely unique. However we can compare it across various parameters in regards to specific capabilities, and mission profiles.

 

[dragonfire]

Maybe we should do a comaprison on those lines as such, the Mi-28s, Ka-52s, the eurocopter tiger, the A-129s and the Apaches - bascialy all except the Ka-50s from the Indian evaluation