A10 friendly fire death...again

Dave H

New Member
The UK news is full of controversy surrounding the friendly fire death in Iraq in 2003. Two A10's attacked four Scimitar light tracked vehicles which were on a reconnaissance mission north of Basra with 30 mm cannon. This left one dead and one wounded. It appears the US military wanted the cockpit footage classified but it has appeared online at the sun.co.uk, one of our tabloid newspapers.

Much information isnt verified, although the vehicles were south of the Shait-al-arab waterway, some reports suggest the US planes were told enemy vehicles lay to the north and that was where they should attack. Other reports say they were Idaho ANG pilots, a Colonel and a Major with no combat experience (would that make a difference, they must still be highly trained?)

Now many issues of the incident leave some concern but I accept that friendly fire incidents will always happen , the audio clearly shows that the pilots are devastated when they realise what has happened. They are operating in a confused situation, the ground controllers seem unsure where friendlies are etc. Although they know that allied forces have orange panels on vehicles, the pilots 'think' they are looking at trucks with orange rockets on them, but even after the first straffing run, they still ask each other " is that what you think they are?"

Whilst the tabloids will focus on the pilots, this footage starts at 12,000 feet, the firing at 5,000 feet.

Is the A10 too low tech to identify targets clearly at that altitude? if the pilots need to debate what they might be seeing, does this suggest that the aircraft shouldnt be tasked with roving ahead of a fast moving advance, where enemy pockets merge with allied movements? After a similar incident in 1991 why hasnt a better command and control or IFF procedures been found?

The A10 is currently being upgraded with such kit as the Litening SNIPER XR pod, better FLIR and TV. Does anyone have any information on the capabilities of this upgrade?(I can only get the 'world beating' blurb on the Locheed Site) Could the pilots in future get a clear picture of ground targets from heights such as 12,000 feet?

The more sensible press in the UK are pointing out that we inflicted Blue on blue incidents as well, its just that the A10 is now in the minds of the public and no doubt the UK troops who will work underneath it. (That said we couldnt do without US airpower, army sources in Afghanistan have criticised the performance of the RAF Harrier in close air support, hence an urgent competition is running for a contract which the Sniper pod may win).

This incident shouldnt have made such a negative impression, The widow shouldnt have been told the video didnt exist, if it was shown earlier the matter would have settled, I cant see how a video of a 30 year old aircraft using a gun in daylight could have given away too many secrets, the HUD data could have been blacked out.

Thoughts to the widow and family and also to the pilots who have to live with a mistake made in war.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Unfortunately it seems the media are just too willing to inflict even more pain on a grieving widow and on pilots who have already gone though hell. Mistakes have always happened in war and they will no doubt happen again in the future. The important thing is to learn from them and make every effort possible to avoid repetition. The military also have much to learn, IMO, in the way they handle these cases. Efforts to cover up or sanitise information almost always leak out into the media later. We have certainly seen examples of this in Australia recently and the result always seems to be even more suffering for the soldiers and families concerned.
 

Dave H

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3
I have mixed opinions on the media, they can be a manipulative bloodsucking bunch but so can our politicians. The media have put the UK Govt and MOD on the spot about many issues that would have been covered up particularly penny pinching that puts life at risk. Eg, lack of flame proofing foam on the RAF hercules at the massive cost of £150,000 per aircraft = dead servicemen. Sending Red Caps out with hardly any ammunition and radios that didnt work = dead servicemen. Lack of body armour = dead serviceman.

These days to get a better picture of conflict we should look to YouTube where you can see the lads on the ground posting real footage, every serviceman is now a journalist. This is very bad for our lying, cheating politicians and the minnions in the ministry.

The public should see the result of the conflicts that the elected politicians send troops to, it might make them be more choosy where they stick their noses and it might make them fund the services properly.
 

spectre

Fly'n for fun
Verified Defense Pro
I watched the whole tape and Yes, there is a breakdown in info. They asked several times if there were friendlies in the area that they were in (did the controller know where they were talking about? where they in the right area? Did they know where they were?) they asked several times again if there were friendlies on the ground there.

This is a horrible accident. These pilots will live with this the rest of their lives. You can tell in their voice how bad they feel.

I am honestly surprised how few blue on blues there have been...the sad fact that it is part of war and with every war there is less and less of it.

I pray for the Widow. I pray for the wounded. I pray for the pilots in this horrible accident.
 

petrac

New Member
Amen!!

I agree these things happen, and indeed, it was very low, although every incident was wide open in the press. Fall-out from the media integration with the military units in the field and modern technology...
 

spectre

Fly'n for fun
Verified Defense Pro
1336.57 POPOV36: "Hey, I got a four ship. Looks like we got orange panels on them though. Do we have any friendlies up in this area?"
1337.16 POPOV35: "Confirm, north 800 metres. Confirm there are no friendlies this far north on the ground."
1337.21 MANILA HOTEL: "That is an affirm. You are well clear of friendlies."

1339.23 POPOV35: "OK, copy. Like I said, multiple riveted vehicles. They look like flatbed trucks. Are those your targets?"
1339.30 MANILA HOTEL: "That’s affirm."

Popov flight is the pair of A-10's and Manila is a Marine Forward Controller attached to the British ground units.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
Amen!!

I agree these things happen, and indeed, it was very low, although every incident was wide open in the press. Fall-out from the media integration with the military units in the field and modern technology...
I think it's partly to do with the fact the Yanks keep killing our boys and not (as far as anyone knows) the other way around. If it happened each way, people would realise it "just happens" sometimes.

Also, if this had been a flight of Harriers or Tornadoes shooting up Virginia farmboys, do you really think the US press would have not got angry? I'm sure Fox News would have called for the pilots heads on a platter.
 

Dave H

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8
....Although it appears the pilot refers to some iraqi vehicles to the north and asks if there were friendly forces nearby. The actual vehicles attacked were to the west. In fact during the audio there appears to be some confusion as to east and west, 2 oclock, 10 o'clock etc.

Neither pilot passes any grid reference of the four vehicles to the controller (can the A10 pass exact fixes of points on the ground?)

They them mistake the orange markers for rockets. (I thought orange rockets only existed in James Bond Films...did the Iraqis paint anything orange?). P35 asks for an artillery round to be fired but doesnt wait for it to happen (doesnt want them to reach the village...understandable),

P35 convinces himself they have orange rockets, P36 adds, " I think killing these damn rocket launchers, it would be great".

The attack went in before pemission given but the time pressure on moving to the village might account for this. On an operational side, do aircraft need to get permission?

Even after the first pass and before the second the pilots seem to debate if they are actually looking at rocket launchers. P36, " Thats what you think they are , right?"
At that point P35 has his goggles on them and says he thinks they are.

As the original question I asked, just how good are the on board aides, such as goggles, at identifying things far below?

How far forward is a forward air controller in these situations?
 

rnafghaniraq

New Member
Disrespect

I have just watched a news broadcast from a neighbour of one of the aircrew who carried out the unfortunate attack. How can you really expect us to give you respect in the USA when comments such as "you cowards over there with your weak services, and weak country, including the europeans". As someone who has served in iraq and afghanistan, serving with US forces very closely in both thatres i am disgusted that some US yokle can call me weak. Trust me the brits who were working with the US with me, proved how WE can get the yanks out of the shit on many occasions.

The gentleman who made the comment also mentioned how weak we were during world war 2. Obviously many parts of the US were bombed, and starved???. US didn't support terrorism ever (IRA's Biggest financial support???). I think you lot need to look at how you are percieved in the world. The comments made by this gentleman just go to show how little respect you have for other nations. Head for head we are laying down our lives just as much as the US is, more comments like these and you will have more enemies every day!!
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
I have just watched a news broadcast from a neighbour of one of the aircrew who carried out the unfortunate attack. How can you really expect us to give you respect in the USA when comments such as "you cowards over there with your weak services, and weak country, including the europeans". As someone who has served in iraq and afghanistan, serving with US forces very closely in both thatres i am disgusted that some US yokle can call me weak. Trust me the brits who were working with the US with me, proved how WE can get the yanks out of the shit on many occasions.

The gentleman who made the comment also mentioned how weak we were during world war 2. Obviously many parts of the US were bombed, and starved???. US didn't support terrorism ever (IRA's Biggest financial support???). I think you lot need to look at how you are percieved in the world. The comments made by this gentleman just go to show how little respect you have for other nations. Head for head we are laying down our lives just as much as the US is, more comments like these and you will have more enemies every day!!
I can understand your reaction to the comments made but it would be wrong to judge Americans based on the comment of one misguided individual who has possibly never seen active service himself. I hear disparaging comments here (Australia) from time to time about people in other countries, including England, America - you name it. But that doesn't reflect the way the vast majority of Australians feel about those countries and the people who live in them. Americans I know (some I have worked with in Tasmania and some I have travelled with) appreciate efforts made by other countries in the war against terror and they certainly admire the way Britain stood up when all seemed lost in WW2. No doubt a lot of Americans would like to see other countries doing more but the media in every country seems to concentrate mainly on the casualties their own country suffers and the contribution their own country makes so it is difficult to get a true picture of what efforts are being made by others.

Cheers
 

spectre

Fly'n for fun
Verified Defense Pro
I think it's partly to do with the fact the Yanks keep killing our boys and not (as far as anyone knows) the other way around. If it happened each way, people would realise it "just happens" sometimes.

Also, if this had been a flight of Harriers or Tornadoes shooting up Virginia farmboys, do you really think the US press would have not got angry? I'm sure Fox News would have called for the pilots heads on a platter.
First, How about that Brit killing Brit tank fight that happened around the same time? What happened to the crew of that tank that lived? Why did that happen? How did that happen? I will say it again, It is a very unfortunate part of war.

Who is to say that there have not been strafing accidence caused by the Brits? (If you say there has not been ... I know different)
How would you have heard about it? DO you think EVERY incident makes it to the news?

And show me a Virginia Farm boy and I'll buy you a beer. They are much too Liberal there to farm.



---again, I am not saying that the A-10 Pilots did everything right...
There was breakdown on both sides (the A-10s and the Controller) and, how on earth would you ever know for a fact that the Brit convoy was where is should have been?
 

rnafghaniraq

New Member
Blue on blue

Trust me i have had to deal with the aftermath of a blue on blue personally. I admire the american servicemen i worked with in the past, and have spent many months in america on exercise. But at a time when tensions are high diplomay is the key, not parading the worth of the USA against any other nation.

The point i am trying to make is that the public must understand that there comments are seen as the comments of there nation whether a minority opinion or not. The press have a large part to play, and as some reality tv stars have found out in the UK, one comment that is detrimental to another can ruin any progress made.

I do however feel that the USA have done themselfs no favours in this matter. The blue on blue was an unfortunate consequence of war, but the fact the video was kept from the widow for four years cannot be forgiven. They created an air of unease for no apparent reason, and finally someone had the decency to release the video to the press for the sake of the widow. Who were they supporting, there political careers, or the servicemans wife who just wanted to have closure on the life of her husband who gave his life.
 

spectre

Fly'n for fun
Verified Defense Pro
I being here in the US now, I guess I did not hear the whole story, What was the widow told originally?
 

rnafghaniraq

New Member
treatment of widow

The widow was informed that due to matters of national security the footage could not be released. I am sure all will agree there wasn't any technical info that couldn't have been shown to the coroner and widow, or at least the head up display elements edited out. It was a fact of denial on behalf of the military, that served to cause more bad media coverage than they would have recieved if they had owned up to the accident in the first place.
 

spectre

Fly'n for fun
Verified Defense Pro
The widow was informed that due to matters of national security the footage could not be released. I am sure all will agree there wasn't any technical info that couldn't have been shown to the coroner and widow, or at least the head up display elements edited out. It was a fact of denial on behalf of the military, that served to cause more bad media coverage than they would have recieved if they had owned up to the accident in the first place.
Why would you want the HUD camera footage? If my wife was accidentally killed and it was filmed.. I sure as hell would not want watch it.


also, I doubt that it was about not wanting bad media...this happened around day 6 of the war...there was little bad press on the war at that time.
 

Rich

Member
I think it's partly to do with the fact the Yanks keep killing our boys and not (as far as anyone knows) the other way around. If it happened each way, people would realise it "just happens" sometimes.

Also, if this had been a flight of Harriers or Tornadoes shooting up Virginia farmboys, do you really think the US press would have not got angry? I'm sure Fox News would have called for the pilots heads on a platter.
"Yanks keep killing our boys"? How many times has this happened" 30? 40? 100? Or was it 2 or 3 times since Gulf-1? If you going to make inflamatory statements then justify and quantify them!

I wonder how much Yank air power is in theatre compared to Brit air power? That, and the inevitable break down in inter-army communications, would probably add to a far higher probability of Yank on Brit then visa versa.

BTW your statement about "virginia farm boys" is just plain ignorant! I suspect any "Virginia farm boys" in theatre, or in Virginia, are saddened by this sutation too.
 

rnafghaniraq

New Member
She didn't want the hud footage in particular, she wanted the footage released to the coroner 3 years after the incident to prove how her husband died, as the US govt didn't confirm the facts. The US govt refused to give the coroner (who investigates all military deaths) the footage from that day, and it took someone leaking the footage for the US govt to admit what happened.

You see the US govt didn't accept responsibility, and it took someone from within to make them accept that the footage was proof of the blue on blue. As others have said there have been many blue on blues, it wasn't to proportion blame on the US, it was just to get the facts, so that the coroner could report on the actual facts. Shame it took a leak to prove it, after all if we are such joined nations why couldn't they let the widow and the coroner know the truth, just like you would expect us to release any info if we were to blame.

If they had let the coroner have access it would not have been made public, and would have avoided the press, and the opinions of those like us who would have been none the wiser!!
 

spectre

Fly'n for fun
Verified Defense Pro
She didn't want the hud footage in particular, she wanted the footage released to the coroner 3 years after the incident to prove how her husband died, as the US govt didn't confirm the facts. The US govt refused to give the coroner (who investigates all military deaths) the footage from that day, and it took someone leaking the footage for the US govt to admit what happened.

You see the US govt didn't accept responsibility, and it took someone from within to make them accept that the footage was proof of the blue on blue. As others have said there have been many blue on blues, it wasn't to proportion blame on the US, it was just to get the facts, so that the coroner could report on the actual facts. Shame it took a leak to prove it, after all if we are such joined nations why couldn't they let the widow and the coroner know the truth, just like you would expect us to release any info if we were to blame.

If they had let the coroner have access it would not have been made public, and would have avoided the press, and the opinions of those like us who would have been none the wiser!!
Wait, you are telling me that no one knew there was a blue on blue that day? Bullshit... I was there and we all got briefed and we had the MK1 guys in with us (as well as other coalition)

You can't tell me that they need the footage to confirm the death was fratricide. Its not like it was a HUGE secret... we all knew it then.
 

rnafghaniraq

New Member
Are you telling me, considering that not all blue on blues are totally blameless, that you would accept that one of your loved ones died in a blue on blue, and that is that.

I am sure you would want to know if it was a total accident or a mistake due to inadequacy of those killing. We are taught to identify a target before shooting after all! Aren't we!!

And as for briefings, you can't tell me you knew all the facts unless you were directly dealing with the incident. And even if you were, the widow wasn't and an official reason for her husbands death was not given to her.
 

spectre

Fly'n for fun
Verified Defense Pro
Are you telling me, considering that not all blue on blues are totally blameless, that you would accept that one of your loved ones died in a blue on blue, and that is that.

I am sure you would want to know if it was a total accident or a mistake due to inadequacy of those killing. We are taught to identify a target before shooting after all! Aren't we!!

And as for briefings, you can't tell me you knew all the facts unless you were directly dealing with the incident. And even if you were, the widow wasn't and an official reason for her husbands death was not given to her.
I am telling you that I would NOT watch a video of my wife in her dying moments.
I am telling you that there was NO cover up. We were told, the Brits were told, the rest of the coalition that was at the base I was at that night were told that (and I am running off memory here) an A-10 shot a friendly truck convoy and that there may have been three killed. The fighter attack guys (not many there mostly Nimrod and herk drivers) were to to ask 13 times if you have to...but be sure of what you are doing.

Yes, I would want to know if my loved one was the one at fault...

I am sure no one told that widow that her husband screwed everything up and did everything wrong.
 
Top