A-10C Update...

Kurt Plummer

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/airforce/Next_generation_A10C_arrives10009264.php

Interesting. Look at the picture and you will see both the 'return of the LAU-88' (which is very unusual with the TF34 upgrade still unfunded) and what attempts to be a representative PE warload. Specifically, note that the AAQ-28 appears to have been displaced to the outboard midwing station instead of supplanting the Maverick on the inner-outboard station. It will be interesting to see if that particular location works well both in clearing the Gear sponson mask line and providing decent, stable, target tracking capability at a significantly higher index point on the wing dihedral (hog outboard panels flex considerably). I certainly would not want to be firing Sidewinder from an adjacent station however I also wouldn't want to put both my electronics pods that close either.

Unfortunately, I can't tell if the Mk.82 shape on the port inner wing pylon is a GBU-38 or not (I think I can see the canard strake but it's dim at best) and without /also/ seeing it on the centerline (WCMD is far too expensive for 'everyday' CAS) it's hard to tell how much of an improvement has been made as a function of 'JDAM compatible' pylon wiring. Given that the GBU-12 is restricted to the inner wings only, it could be that a -realistic- loadout would remain 1-2 powered standoff shots and 2 unpowered ones unless the GBU-38 also fits to the fuselage stations.

Probably the biggest disappointment of the article is the failure to highlight how the A-10C PEP now fits the contemporary roles and missions functioning that the A-10 now undertakes as part of joint air attack these days and particularly 'what remains to be done' relative to that mission scenario in later Spirals.

Last I heard, JTRS imploded due to inability of NSA to resolve secure crypto issues relative to SDR driven waveform and channel definitions for the various MIDS/L16 and EPLRS or followon TTNT (which nobody seems to wanted to pay for the added bandpipe) formats. Specifically, Army wouldn't pay for Air Force integration of their waveform within an otherwise cheapest-possible MIDS-LVT box. If so, SADL and the DSMS must have been decoupled and that means god-knows-what relative to decent functional blue tooth connectivity with the ground forces.

Something which is important given the A-10 is functionally the only lo-FAC in many instances; you _need_ an adhoc network agent to get the tactical picture up to the F-jets and that may not always be direct-pipe possible given the low number of ROVER terminals out there. The A-10 also lacks a radar and a fast-scoot ability so it may be a case of 'lasing on or nothing' from a decent standoff relative to getting the fast movers eyes on, quickly without mutual assured positioning.

Yet this is also impractical (IMO) from a single seat cockpit without the digital map and an ability to precue the pod, rapidly.

Of course it's always nice to have added smart weapons but here too, the notion that a grossly underpowered airframe is going to be flying high enough to make best use of ballistic ordnance is, IMO, a challengeable assumption. I would like to see the bubble around a ground target for a 12-18K foot, <>300 knot, GBU-38 release. I'm betting that it's not much different from CDIP. Keeping the Hogs nose out of the dirt is 'always a good thing', given the exceptionally prolonged climbout (5 minutes for 15,000ft after a gun run) but IMO, there remains a significant disconnect between the high and low standoff approach to PGM warfare and particularly the single pilot workload issues in the A-10 PEP which tend to bring you back to 'old school' with guns and bombs as a _very_ dangerous exponent of reactive fast-suppression.

And this is something which will remain a crucial problem both on the front end (reliable SADL/EPLRS/ROVER functionality in predesignating targets)and backend (shoot and shoot again before coming off) whatever tactics eventuate in prosecuting the kill-chain.

Specifically, the A-10 needs to be out of easy Mk.1 Ball parameters for recognition of target area variables while supporting ballistic munitions delivery from 'higher and faster' off other platforms in the FAC-A mission and on it's own, needs a significantly better, lighter, smart-racked, _powered_ standoff munition to give it some precued and rapid slewed weapon servicings from internally stored and headsdown compatible target marks that the pilot can reference from outside all trashfire envelopes.

Unfortunately, the best weapon for this role: the JCM, itself remains on life support after having over reached itself for seeker moding and cost, or we might FINALLY have a decent (simple) SALH+Inertial Hellfire followon to put on the Hog (the missile and quadrail were originally cleared to the type back in 1984 or so) so that you could get 20,000ft+ standoffs while remaining at or below 10,000ft AGL heights.

CONCLUSION:
In the end, I think they are putting the cart before the horse in pushing out the engine and netcentrics into Spiral 2/3, even as I think they have vastly overestimated the amount of funding likely to be available, post-Iraq. This will effect both the initial upgrade itself (356 airframes is about twice again as much as will be affordable) and the sustainment once the A-10 becomes a software driven airframe with all the quarterly tape issues and DMS problems that plague other 'high end' jets.

When Lockheed Owego did their original PE funding estimates, back in 1998 or so, everything was based on cracking the primary airframe JUST ONCE to install the principle avionics backbone and make the remaining Hog Up structural updates. This looks to me to be multiple make work replacement effort going through the USAF depot system instead (which will be /very/ costly) and even if it is fully funded, I frankly question how tactically viable the 'final standard' A-10 will be when the last jet comes out of it's last PDM update cycle. Only to be flown to the boneyard, sometime in the late 20-teens.


KPl.
 

rjmaz1

New Member
I agree to some extent.

In todays conflicts such as Afganistan and Iraq the A-10C will be ideal. It offers the down in the mud and stength of the original A-10 air frame, with some of the stand off munitions, advanced targeting and netcentric capabilities of a high end aircraft.

The A-10C will still be cheaper to operate than the F-16 and will be a fraction of the cost of the larger aircraft.

A Close Air Support UCAV is still atleast a couple decades away.

UCAV is the ideal solution, however we will first see it operating only as an F-117 bomb trucking role. It may take a long time until the software and sensors develop to allow it to perform other missions.

The A-10C is meant to be an interim solution.

Low end conflicts often require the aircraft to go "down in the mud" and provide a physical presence. Aircraft like the JSF will be easy pickings flying low. Not to mention that the A-10C is MUCH cheaper than the JSF not when it comes to operating cost but purchase cost.

Its like buying a $20,000 car to save $50 a week on fuel, when you could buy a $5,000 car and use $15,000 to make up any difference in fuel effeciency.

You can also risk a cheaper aircraft as they are expendable to an extend.

At the end of the day the A-10C will support US troops, drop bombs on the enemy. Sure some aircraft might carry more bombs, have longer endurance or get to the target quicker but once you take into account the cost, nothing else is as cost effective as the A-10 for a low-tech conflict.

The key word here is "low-tech"

When money is running low you start buying cost effective weapon systems with miniumum development risk. The A-10C is a safe move.
 

rjmaz1

New Member
MQ-9 Reaper?
Not a chance.

The airframe may have long endurance and be able to drop a bomb but that does not make it capable. The hardware is the easy part to make, looks impressive on paper but the software is what allows it do the job.

Sensor upgrades are needed for improved situational awareness.
More autonomous capabilities in case a signal is jammed.
Countermeasures to evade the enemy.
Simplified mobile ground stations to provide a mobile network.

Software is the big one, to link all this information together and process it inside the UCAV itself to make it work on its own. This will then dramatically reduces the work load from the ground station. A single ground station can then control dozens of UCAV's. Currently the information from all the sensors is sent to the ground station, where multiple people can decide what to do. All control is done by the mobile ground stations and is man power intensive.

All of this cost billions and its much cheaper to just upgrade the A-10 fleet. For the cost of a single MQ-9 its ground station, connection nodes etc you could buy upgrade a couple A-10C's for the same money. Until all those features are added to the UCAV package the A-10 will provide better close air support at a fraction of the cost.

We have to wait for the sensors and software to develop which is atleast 10 years away.
 

Kurt Plummer

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #5
Rjmaz,

>>
In todays conflicts such as Afganistan and Iraq the A-10C will be ideal. It offers the down in the mud and stength of the original A-10 air frame, with some of the stand off munitions, advanced targeting and netcentric capabilities of a high end aircraft.
>>

This seems contradictory to me. 'down in the mud' is the last spot I want to be sending an airframe with a targeting pod and a lot of network comms gear. While strength can also be seen as resilience and low MMH:FH numbers for primitive expeditionary environment, it comes at a price in fast transit and altitude performance in parts of the world where hot and high are applicable for thousands of square miles of terrain.

Mind you, a UCAV that is RIGHT THERE will beat an F-16 coming hard and fast from 150-200nm out. Or even a Harrier from half that distance.

>>
The A-10C will still be cheaper to operate than the F-16 and will be a fraction of the cost of the larger aircraft.
>>

Larger than what? The A-10 dwarfs the F-16 and still comes with all the equivalent penalties of manned airframes (oxygen, bang seat, control runs and displays, EW and Targeting electronics) /plus/ an extra engine.

With the MQ-9 you are looking at-

Empty Weight: 3,000lbs
Max Weight: 10,000lbs
Length: 36ft
Wingspan: 66ft

While on the A10-
Empty Weight: 20,246lbs
Max Weight: 47,400lbs
Length: 53ft
Wingspan: 57ft

In 2001, without a targeting pod or any PGM/NCW support, the A-10 was generating 2,900 dollar per hour cost rates. The F-16C with presumably 'all the fixins' (Block 40 CG with LANTIRN) was coming in at 5,000 dollars per flight hour.

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/blafacrates.htm

Don't tell me that a NEW, unmanned, airframe which has 'half as much of everything' is going to do worse than one which has had the wings flown off of it since 9/11 and is _gaining_ all the systems sophistication of the Lawn Dart.

Because just on the canopy-forward = combat pay + currency training issues _I ain't gonna believe you_.

>>
A Close Air Support UCAV is still atleast a couple decades away.
>>

The Reaper has six wing pylons. The inner two are qualified to 1,500lbs, the midwings to 650lbs, the outboards are good for 200lbs. Given a gross payload margin of 3,500lbs overall, 'theoretically' this gives you either 8 GBU-39 or as many as 10 AGM-114/JCM followons (with LAU-142 JCRL on the inboards).

Neither the F-16 nor the A-10 can presently match that. Neither the A-10 nor the F-16 will _ever_ be able to match the potential 42hr endurance of the MQ-9 with tanks on the inboards.

The only reason the CAS UCAV is a couple decades away is because we won't fess up and admit that it was doable back in '98-2000 when the CIA missed several opportunities to nail Osama's head to a cross because the DOD in 1996 refused to weaponize their Gnats OR the Predators.

>>
UCAV is the ideal solution, however we will first see it operating only as an F-117 bomb trucking role. It may take a long time until the software and sensors develop to allow it to perform other missions.
>>

No. The UCAV, at least as now expressed (militarized sailplane configuration), is far from an ideal solution for the penetrating strike mission, simply because it is too slow, too high a signature and too poorly weaponized relative to hard target munitions.

That said, none of the electronics or sensors on the current MQ-1/MQ-9 need upgrading to accomplish the CAS mission, indeed, they are superior to what even the A-10C can provide.

>>
The A-10C is meant to be an interim solution.
>>

Interim-

Main Entry: 1ad in·ter·im
Pronunciation: 'ad-'in-t&-r&m, -"rim also 'äd-
Function: adverb
Etymology: Latin
: for the intervening time : [SIZE=-1]TEMPORARILY[/SIZE]

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

//Interim// solutions DO NOT continue for the full length of what 'would have happened anyway'. They do NOT give pilots a freebie ride through another generation of union paychecks.

>>
Low end conflicts often require the aircraft to go "down in the mud" and provide a physical presence.
>>

No they do not. Jets that fly low eat trashfire and then you get Al Jazeera footage of an F-16 canopy and some asshole's boot on the back of a _dead pilot_. Why do you think we developed the GBU-38 and why do you think the top preferred CAS munition is the _GBU-12_ if not to put precision fires above the trashfire envelope?

Do we have to do a fixed wing version of BHD before someone wakes up and realizes that the only way to be predictable -and- untouchable is to never put yourself in a position where you are giving the threat /even a chance/ to shoot back and score one for Allah?

>>
Aircraft like the JSF will be easy pickings flying low.
>>

They will if they fly overhead CAS like the A-10 does.

The Marines, despite having a hugely inferior airframe in the AV-8B _learned better_ in 1991. And now they fly cardinal point CAS stacks that are faster to service because they /only/ require the that jet reach PGM slants rather than drive down into the weeds and there is no IP bottleneck as jets come into the killbox with limited gas and a bunch of other eager beavers behind them.

Indeed, a CAS UCAV can /define/ the FSCL by _flying it_. At 100 knots.

>>
Not to mention that the A-10C is MUCH cheaper than the JSF not when it comes to operating cost but purchase cost.
>>

And an MQ-9 is going to run you about 8-10 million and is available today.

While the A-45/47 -could- have been built for about 15 million (back before the flyboys deliberately gold-plated them) and now will likely run about 25-30. The difference is that the UCAVs will have four times the endurance which means half the sortie hours in the operational theater. And the UCAVs will have a tenth as much training time because one pilot can change seats in the same sortie whether the airframe is flying or a simulator is.

90% of flying in combat is boring skyholes doing _nothing at all_.

Because nobody is shooting at you in the umpteen hundred miles from base to target area and the autopilot is ten times as efficient at holding altitude, heading and mach point.

Tactical training in the all-PGM era requires _high fidelity_ sensor models to cue weapon flyout envelope/seeker equivalents on spectrum rich synthetic targets which, without a man onboard /might as well/ be completely simulated since this keeps both the system capabilities and the bandwidth secure and there is no need for 'felt' maneuver or delivery parameters using wings-level, nose-on-horizon PGM release.

>>
Its like buying a $20,000 car to save $50 a week on fuel, when you could buy a $5,000 car and use $15,000 to make up any difference in fuel effeciency.
>>

No. It's like buying a car and NOT DRIVING IT, except when you need to run down to the local revolution and kill people.

Because, even today, 70% of a combat airframes life is spent in peacetime. Where the only thing being gainfully employed are pilots that tend to forget how to make war if they don't get their 120-200hrs a year worth of stick time.

>>
You can also risk a cheaper aircraft as they are expendable to an extent.
>>

Fine. But lets not make that aircraft a Model T in a Ferrari world.

Because if it can't do the job, it's not going to matter how cheap it is and 'expendable' is NOT the definition of capability.

Lets NOT make them manned when Directed Energy Weapons Systems are _here_ and will only get better. M-THEL has destroyed MANPADS class systems at 20km sir. That's a helluva large bubble around the target to be pretending you can loiter a manned airframe at <15,000ft altitudes and even if we hush things up and refused to pay for COILs. You can no longer guarantee that those same systems -won't- be developed by say the Chinese. Since a 1-2 shot sacrificial system which can kill an airframe is very much a valuable item, even if it can't shoot a RAM class threat out of the air moving twice as fast.

Combine these factors:

1. Peacetime Training Costs vs. Wartime (endurant) Sortie Numbers.
2. Dated Mission Concept NOW.
3. Utter unsurvivability in the face of high leverage threats NOW.

And the A-10C is not an 'interim' it's an _excuse_. To keep employing pilots at the cost of the grunt infantry.

>>
At the end of the day the A-10C will support US troops, drop bombs on the enemy. Sure some aircraft might carry more bombs, have longer endurance or get to the target quicker but once you take into account the cost, nothing else is as cost effective as the A-10 for a low-tech conflict.
>>

Low Tech kills more men than high intensity does sir. High intensity creates massed force signatures against which massed fires may be preemptively laid and FOR which systems like JSTARS and satellites are optimized to readily see the marshaling and logistics precursors in determining whether you want to accept that fight and when.

Low Tech is where some lone outpost gets to play Rorke's Drift because the air is 20-30 minutes away at some center-country base sitting 'ramp alert' with the pilots playing cards in the air conditioned ops room because EVEN THE U.S. cannot afford to be flying 2 minutes away in a 'just in case' 17hr orbits over every site.

Alternately, it's where some poor fool looking for a college eductation loses a foot to a soda can IED in a back alleyway because nobody was there /before/ the boots went out to do see the little coward come up and place it.

>>
The key word here is "low-tech"

When money is running low you start buying cost effective weapon systems with miniumum development risk. The A-10C is a safe move.
>>

From the Boots On Ground perspective (i.e. What 'CAS' is supposed to be all about), there is no 'safe move' in Low Tech warfare. There is only putting the threat in such a persistent-coverage position that it freezes up in paranoia over not being able to generate free maneuver and particularly approach to and disengagement from a predictable friendly target position or line of march.

IOW: Which denies surprise ambush or desultory COE attack principles essential to the unconventional warriors own 'doctrinal' desire to have already faded by the time the conventional trained force can scramble a response.

Avoiding such conditions which _rapidly_ destroy friendly morale and swing theater initiative to the political underdog of the primitive force requires that you BE THERE to see the setup.

No matter how many sheep surround the goats.

Or how how deep into the back of beyond your manned skyeye sentry system cannot stay on station to sanitize-the-void with.

In this, the UCAV has many advantages:

1. It's sensor suite is superior to that of any manned system. Both in coverage arc (lower hemisphere dedicated) and spectrum (MMW equals hi-rez + through clouds. MTS= superior day optics and equal targeting FLIR).

2. It is 'safer' on-high than the manned asset is down low. Thus the /technology investment/ is safer from the most predominant of COIN threats inherent to low-medium caliber AAA, RPG and MANPADS.

3. It is cheap to own in peacetime (near-zero sorties training, no manned certification systems like oxygen and explosive release) and endurant to fly in combat (more hours from fewer sorties = more air time overall).

Which means so long as it is never engaged by _heavy systems_ (A2A and S2A supremacy is almost a given for CAS to work) it will generate targeting that the /reactive/ manned force cannot.

CONCLUSION:
Sun Tzu said it best I think: "Know yourself and you win 25% of your battles. Know your enemy as well as yourself and you win 50%. Know yourself and your enemy and your chosen ground and you win 75%. But the only way to win 100% of the time is to _so intimidate the threat_ that they flee the field without ever joining battle."

In this, I think we have failed to redefine what 'battle' is. Battle is killing your enemy in the march. So that he is afraid to expose himself, even to the setup phases of a desultory COE attack. Nobody can avoid this preparatory phase of battle. And even if you miss a few leadup cues, so long as someone is sitting _right there_ to see it happen, you can /historically/ trace vehicles, personnel and the like back to whatever hole they came creepsy traipsing out of.

Compared to this kind of hold-the-peace capability, winning the high intensity fight is simple.

What we have put ourselves into is a situation where 'it don't mean nuthin' means dying for nuthin' because we can't see nuthin' to kill and the politicians take that to mean a lack of competence in stopping the violence. Or at least isolating it to those who are determined to murder for a cause but not to stand up and take casualties of their own.

And as far as I'm concerned, the A-10C does NUTHIN' to keep the enemy from making it seem as if WE are the ones who are afraid to force the battle.


KPl.
 

B.Smitty

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Not a chance.
You said a CAS UCAV was at least a decade away. The MQ-9 can provide CAS today. It may not be perfect, but it can and will do it.

Sensor upgrades are needed for improved situational awareness.
More autonomous capabilities in case a signal is jammed.
Countermeasures to evade the enemy.
Simplified mobile ground stations to provide a mobile network.
MTS-B and Lynx ER are significant upgrade over the Predator's sensor suite.

http://defense-update.com/products/m/MTS.htm

"A different version of the payload designated MTS-B was designed for the Predator B hunter-killer missions. This version uses a 20" ball with visible and IR imagers, to provide long range surveillance from high altitude, Including a 2048x2048 pixel focal plane array which enables a footprint of 200x48 meters from 25,000 feet, compared with 50x10 footprint obtained by standard MTS, from an altitude of 10,000 feet. When "stepping" such larger frames in rapid succession, the UAV operators can obtain a wider view of the area, and eliminate the "straw" view of existing payloads. This capability dramatically improves the resolution and coverage of the sensor. Utilizing existing digital zoom (up to x4 factor) the extended range sensor can quadruple the area coverage capacity of the sensor, when adequate bandwidth is provided for the system."

http://defense-update.com/products/l/lynx-sar.htm

"All Lynx models are offering several operating modes including STRIP, SPOT and MTI. STRIP mode is used for large area coverage. Flying at a speed of 70 knots, Lynx II can cover an area of 25 km2 per minute at a resolution of 1 meter. Lynx ER is designed for faster platforms (Predator B flying at 250 knots) at higher altitude (45,000 feet vs. 25,000 ft. for RQ-1) will be able to double the rate to a coverage of about 60 km2 per minute. When a closer look is required, the radar can be pointed at specific locations or targets utilizing the SPOT mode. In SPOT, Lynx can deliver a detailed image of a 300x170 meter target area, showing objects with details as small as 10cm, from a distance of 40 kilometers."

The Predator/Reaper can already fly autonomously. They don't really need autonomous strike capabilities in the likely, current threat environments.

Any jamming that takes place will either not impact a satcom controlled Predator flying at 20k+ feet, or will be dealt with quickly by other assets.

Plus, jamming that interrupts Predator comms will also disrupt an A-10's comms. And no comms likely means no CAS in either case, for fear of blue-on-blue.

The only real countermeasures it needs right now is altitude. Plus, even in a higher threat environment, we're far more likely to send unmanned Predator/Reapers than piloted A-10s. They're simply more expendable. Losing a Predator is a page 10 news item. Losing an A-10 makes the front page of every paper in the U.S..

And we don't need a mobile network when operators can sit back in Nevada and control them via satcom. This significantly reduces the forward presence required.

Drawbacks for the MQ-9 would include a still rather slow cruising speed, and not a very large payload. So the high-sortie rate CAS scenarios will still be better served by tacair. But this is not the type of conflict we're fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan right now.
 
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