1971 commanders/etc.

[rknfan]

Re: The Greatest Captains of Military History

Field Marshall Sam Manekshaw proved to be one of the best if not the best of contemporary generals in the greater south asia.

20th century was a period of tumultous political uncertainity for the region. Acheiving a decisive military success was not quite probable in 1971. There were a lot of constraints requiring delicate balance,

- the cold war was blowing heavy, with the threat of US siding with Pakistan.
- anything that is prolonged the UN is going to put a stalemate on it
- fighting in an enemy teritory with native ally - there is always a chance of friction

To his credit the General asked for and got what he wanted. He had excellent commanders on field who devised and executed the plan. And finally the suprise is in the closure of the war. He did not give Gen. Niazi or the leadership of Pakistan any quarter. He demanded unconditional surrender and got it. If there were any complete victories this one comes closer.

Sure he is far removed from his contemporaries if you consider the world at large. But he is as best as they came in this region.

Does FM Sam Manekshaw come anywhere near?

 

[adsH]

Re: Great Commanders

In a matter of speaking he was An intelligent and a very exceptionally capable COAS. Most are. that is the reason why they achieve those positions out of a million other personnel. He executed the War strategies Built up by the Military Force. His contributions admin capabilities, knowledge of Warfare no doubt won him the position. But others in the Indian Army deserve credit too. One of his greatest achievements listed were the Unconditional surrender of Pakistan and the besieged 90,000 POW troops. But in actual fact, whatever i've read about him doesn't seem to mentions that Pakistan was being ripped in a civil War urdu speaking people. Troops from Pakistan's own military were rebelling in the East. Local people were hostile and those 90,000 troops were besieged mainly due the Lack of supply routes that were blocked. In those circumstances where other Foreign allies stopped supply of all Military aid. while india was supported By the Mass flowing Russian arms. If India managed to create Bangladesh. I would pin very little credit on the COAS him self but i would rather award more credit to the Smart and clever INdian Political Parties in government.

 

[rknfan]

Re: Great Commanders

Totally agree, that is a rare instance in which the politico knew exactly
what they wanted and PM Indira Gandhi pulled all stops to get them.

The strategic & tactical planning credits of the liberation should go to
Lt. Gen. Aurora & Major Gen. Jacob.

However it is Manekshaw who balanced the act. He made the western
theater of war a defensive one - and for this he had his detractors. He
got the supplies he wanted by standing upto the PM & her advisors who
wanted an early war. Though he postured defensive in the west he created
an overwhelming superiority of odds in east pakistan, where by for all
purposes the only outcome is an Indian (and allies) victory.

He is not a field tactician a la Rommel or Patton. He is more like
Eisenhover or Powel in crushing the enemy with 'overwhelming force'.
These comparisons, just on the scale of achievements, are absurd - but
you get the point.

On the civil war, yes the country was torn by rife. Pakistan was pumping
up the force to crush the rebellion. There were talk of mass murders and
such. But it is not the rebellion that done in the Pakistan army. It is
the war ... those 90,000 strong force had the capability to give a fight
to the invaders. 90,000 strong force would not lay down arms in 13 days
because of the rebellion. However as happened in Iraq, they already saw
the cause is lost and gave up.

 

[mysterious]

Re: Great Commanders

Excellent post Adsh! Very concise but to the point and lays out the real reasons why Pakistan had to give up East-Pakistan (Bangladesh). Bad decisions by politicians in West-Pakistan and lack of initiative on the part of Niazi led to the downfall; nothing more! Afterall, 90000 rebellion crushing troops are no match for the millions living in East-Pakistan at that time, plus the Mukti-Bahini (Indian backed cross-border terrorists), and the Indian Army itself.

If India truly 'liberated' Bangladesh as it believes it did, then people should tell me why Bangladesh on the whole hates India and considers Pakistan as the bigger brother as of this date?? Anywayz, I dont want to hijack the thread. Just wanted to re-inforce your opinion on Mr Manekshaw, adsh.

 

[adsH]

Re: Great Commanders

RKnFAN this brings us back to the Topic which commander do you think was the best commander during the 71 in the subcontinent. Do you have a list of people, appart from High ranking personnel. Name some lower level commanders. that were winning ground battles. For me this is the real thing hands onn Leading roles !! Administration seems all to Political these days.

 

[rknfan]

Re: Great Commanders

Adsh, you are reinforcing my point. It is the political leaders (Indian Political Party - as you call) who made the decision. And it is the Indian military which blockaded the ports and there by depriving Pakistan army of its supplies. And it is the Indian military which defeated the Pakistan army. And naturally the credit goes to the cheif, that is all I am trying to pointout. Besides 90,000+ strong army can put out a civilian revolt. Actually they were doing an admirable job till the indians came by.

In 1987 same situation arose with Rajiv Gandhi & Gen. Sunderji. Sunderji neither took iniative nor acted decisively one way or the other. But that is another story.

Even Lincoln couldn't stop the south till Grant came by.

mysterious, whether india truly liberated bangladesh is besides the point. It was a stated war objective and they accomplished it.

 

[ajay_ijn]

Re: Great Commanders

In a matter of speaking he was An intelligent and a very exceptionally capable COAS. Most are. that is the reason why they achieve those positions out of a million other personnel. He executed the War strategies Built up by the Military Force. His contributions admin capabilities, knowledge of Warfare no doubt won him the position. But others in the Indian Army deserve credit too. One of his greatest achievements listed were the Unconditional surrender of Pakistan and the besieged 90,000 POW troops. But in actual fact, whatever i've read about him doesn't seem to mentions that Pakistan was being ripped in a civil War urdu speaking people. Troops from Pakistan's own military were rebelling in the East. Local people were hostile and those 90,000 troops were besieged mainly due the Lack of supply routes that were blocked. In those circumstances where other Foreign allies stopped supply of all Military aid. while india was supported By the Mass flowing Russian arms. If India managed to create Bangladesh. I would pin very little credit on the COAS him self but i would rather award more credit to the Smart and clever INdian Political Parties in government.

frankly India took too much credit for the war. Even tho PAF was still brining down better equipped and better supplied IAF Assets. Even tho East PAF at the end was annihilated to Nothing since they had not much to start with. All the credit for the war should go to the two political Parties ruling on the two sides one the West Pakistani and the other the Indian Political party.

U have read that right
Just read that!!!
u are presenting ur views as if u have actually seen the combat.
The way u present ur views about incident u have read being a moderator doesn't impress me .
I can understand if it was member but even a moderator!!!!

All the credit for the war should go to the two political Parties ruling on the two sides one the West Pakistani and the other the Indian Political party

No credit for the soldiers who fought and lost their lives.
No credit for the military personnel who just struggled to achieve their mission.
I think u are insulting both Pakistan and Indian Armed forces.
This is not expected from a moderator.

frankly India took too much credit for the war

India deserves it and i will say it again india deserves.
because ur only thinking about one front and that is bangladesh
But if u had just read more about 1971
India had to think about many other issues.

1.Chinese Threat:China could attack india any time during 1971 that is why india had to send some resources to defend from a surprise attack.

2.American threat: Do u know how threatening it would be when an US Carrier battle group which can carry nuclear strikes be stationed close to ur country.ofcourse soviets are there but a CVBG was near to us,its not thing to be ignored.(USN 7th Fleet USS Enterprise)
When i read about this incident, I knew how powerful a US CVBG is and its strategic potential.

3.War west pakistan:Only 30% Indian combat forces participated in war with east pakistan rest of all in combat with west pakistan or defending chinese front.
There was a Big war going on in the western front.
IAF carried 500 Attack Sorties in 24 hrs in the western front after PAF Striked.This is highest number of attack sorties that IAF carried in a single.
IAF totally mounted 7000 Fighter Sorites and 5000 were from western front.
By this u can understand the intensity of war going on in the western front.


All three India Armed forces were sucessfull in their operations.
It is first time All 3 Armed forces participated in the war.
For the first time india armed forces showed their actual combat capabilty.

India doesn't take much credit bangladesh independence,
1971 war is much more for India than just liberating bangladesh.

In just one line we can say
Like for US is the second world war,For India it is the 1971 war