New Indian Air Force Fighter competition

[jaffo4011]

now this is one thats going to run and run......who do we thinks is going to win the fighter contract for 130 examples of the latest aerial technology?

i personally think we can rule out the f18 and f16 us entries...far too 'last' generation....if the f22 was in there,than it might be different but i think it will be between the eurofighter and rafale in the end with the russians close behind........
:nutkick

 

[ThunderBolt]

Dude, can you please make a bit more sence. Okay by the sounds of it I think you are talking about some indian fighter, is it indian made like LCA or Russian. And where is this comparason happening, are you talking about the recent airshow. You have me confussed...???

 

[Dave H]

Jaffo is referring to the Indian airforce need to replace the MIG21. They will buy up to 146 Fighters. F16,F18,Rafaele, Typhoon, Grippen, mig29 and SU 30- somethings are all competing for the order.

 

[Dr Phobus]

Hello, i take it we are tallking about the Indian MRCA program for 126 figthers, primarily to replace the fishbed family. Well my vote will be on the russian mig-35, a few reasons; they have experince with fulcrums in the apst and have built them at HAL, its a good medium MRCA with a lot of technology development in it (TV, AESA). Also, its too soon to go with american combat planes, the american have a habit of embargo when they disapprove of things that you do, for now the indians are going too be very careful, and rightly so. Cost is a factor too, the Mig 35 will still be much cheaper than super hornet, eurofigther, rafale. Thoughts please....

 

[jaffo4011]

dr,i certainly am talking about the mrca.i think that previously the iaf would have gone straight for the russian option but i detect a change in their thinking.the mig/su's will always be cheaper but they seem to be moving to a more european approach to this issue.i doubt they are using the tendering process just to make the mig 35 cheaper,they are cheap enough already.....
no,they fancy a change i think...and i definetly agree with your assesment of the us offer...unlikely,even if the aircraft offered were competitive enough.

 

[Dr Phobus]

interesting perspective here, of course holding a competition is a way to warm up more too the west even without selecting the final product, get them involved, buy other platforms like C-130, helos, etc. I still argue its too soon for american platforms, french, maybe (rafale would be an excellend platform), american figther planes.. no way. Is it possbile for the future, totally.

 

[Dave H]

Arent the US/European designs much less maintenance intensive and I think the airframes have longer fatigue lives? So in the overall package, per unit cost is hard to quantify. France has offered 40 Rafales as a separate deal to the MRCA, but then France is "whoring" out the poor old rafale to anyone who will have them. Had India not decided on Russian aircraft for her carriers then I think the Rafale would have been a good buy.

Typhoon is the best plane on offer (when all the capabilities are added), not much dearer than the Rafale. However I think the US will offer enough incentives to be in the race. The news section today hinted at Patriot missiles etc as sweeteners and India might just want to cosy up to the US. The Russian offer would make sense but the overall package of US aircraft might just sway it particularly as India has its own muslim problem and a healthy rivalry with China, in which case US technology would be usefull over the next three decades.

 

[jaffo4011]

good point doctor,the indians may be spreading their bets here.....
the rafale seems an excellent platform and i think its a shame that the royal navy didnt go with them for the new carriers.of course the iaf have quite a history of utilising the mirage range previously...

what would be your choice out of the current contenders?...i have a slight bias ,admittedly, but im a big fan of the typhoon and for a much lower cost,the underrated gripen....

 

[rattmuff]

Do IAF have any specific demands on the aircraft that will replace thier MiG-21s?

 

[Dr Phobus]

well, i do not know of anything exact, however, look at the competition, f-16, f-18E/F, typhoon, gripen, Mig-35, i mean wow, what a mix everyone is pitching in...

 

[Rich]

You dont need a crystal ball to see that India/Yank relations are going to strengthen more and more in the coming decades. Its real hard to envision India doing something that could force sanctions. Other then their nuclear program, and that hurdle has been crossed, what have they done in their history that would have done so?

The answer is nothing. India is a Democracy with a burgeoning free market. They have retained many of the excellent institutions of the British system and have a large emmigrant population living in America further improving relations cross culturally. I have many Indian friends. Even more important the fall of the Soviet Union and rise of China puts more emphasis on warmer ties.

I think they are going to go with the Russian planes. They have flown their MIGs well and seem comfortable with them and have an established support pipeline for the Russian planes. They just ordered a bunch for their future carrier. The range of the SU would go well with their goal of controlling the blue water in their region, at least in the strike role.

Choosing the F-16 or F-18 isn't really that important. Whats important is the fact that the option is even available.

 

[jaffo4011]

the trouble is that the us is also trying to be equally good friends to pakistan (see todays news)and that wont help with any future arms sales....
i still dont think that they will go russias way this time.as you said,rich,relations with the west are thawing fast and they dont need to rely on the eastern bloc any more as good as the weaponry may be.....the order will go to france or the eurofighter consortium....

 

[Dr Phobus]

i totally agree about the warming relationships, however, theres another issue with american warplanes, they only tend too use american ordinance. and that is something the IAF really do not have, the IAF are not going to spend the money or the time intergrating russian ordinace onto american plans, nor are they going to starting buying full spectrum ordinance for this MRCA ( remember MRCA, not one a mono-role platform here).. Thus, with the russian Mig 35, many of these concerns are over come, or are we going to see adder, archer on the super hornet ?

thoughts please.

Dr. P

 

[Dr Phobus]

IMO the IAF would be well served by waiting 8-10 yrs and ordering the F-35 ( buy then a cheaper platform due to it being in production), this will bring a unique capability too the region ( stealth, weapon bays and senor fusion). It will be a great plane to replace, flogger, fulcrum, Jagular, Mirage 2000 with. Also, gives this "relationship" time to mature.

 

[Falstaff]

As far as I understand the IAF can't afford to wait another 8-10 years. And then the F-35 still lacks range and speed, that's why I too think the Gripen won't make it either. I haven't found details about the needs of the IAF yet but I think it would be a good guess that they want a somewhat more capable complement to the Tejas (weapon load, range, speed).
Good point about the weapons though. I don't think any of the contenders would be keen on adapting their plane to russian weapons instead of offering their own as part of the package.

If I had to bet, I'd go for the Rafale or SU-35. I'm a great fan of the Typhoon, but I reckon it's by far the most expensive -yet most capable- contender.

 

[Waylander]

This one good advantage of EF and Rafale. They are available much faster.

Both the UK with the EF und France with the Rafale would have no problems to exchange some of their early slots with later slots which would normally go to the buyer.
The UK to stretch their order in the future (The number they bought is just too high but now they have to live with it) and France to finally get their first export order.
This would result in a very fast delivery.

Something I am not sure of the US or Russia can do the same way.

 

[Falstaff]

Good point there, Waylander-

Here's some of my general thoughts:

Origin:
I think that the origin of the new fighter, let's say weapon system, isn't going to play that big role anyway.
Remember, the Indians are already operating russian, french (Mirage 2000) and british (Harrier, anglo-french Jaguar) designs side by side, so they are open minded I think. Shouldn't be too much of a problem for the European contenders. Could be a bit of a problem for our American friends though.
Another point is that the Indians might want to diversify their suppliers a bit more which would make a point against russian planes.

General Layout/ Performance:
The IAF has lost hundreds of fighters during the last decades and might prefer a twin engine layout for safety reasons (Same thing with the German Luftwaffe which after that awful lot of starfighter accidents decided to never buy a single engined fighter again).
India is a huge country and it seeks to improve control over surrounding "blue waters", therefore any true MRCA needs to be a capable interceptor/ air superiority fighter with good range and speed. Given that all contenders do have a decent sensor suit and BVR capabilities and weapons, this too would make one of the twin engine solutions probable at least.
As far as "true MRCA" is concerned: Could be a problem for the Typhoon as there still is some development work to be done. But this point also requires a big weapon load, which some have, some haven't. IMO a true MRCA has to carry anti radiation missiles, bombs and air to air missiles at a time to switch roles during the mission.
Another thing is that I think the IAF definitely wants to have an edge over the PAF on a face-to-face basis which would rule out the F-16.

Politics:
As this competition is about 126 potentially expensive fighters and there are rumours around (see DID's coverage today) that it could extend to around 180 fighters, each of the contenders will pretty much do everything to win and as all of the involved potential bidders (USA, France, UK, Russia) are very experienced with sweetening defence contracts, that's gonna be an interesting competition! I think we too will see some interesting technology transfer and economical incentives here...
Last point: New and warming relationships are a good thing, but keeping old ones hot is just as good...

Which brings me to the conclusion:
F-16:
+ multi-role
+ warming indo-us relations
- range
- single engine
- PAF flies it
- old design, growth potential doubtful

F-18:
+ multi-role
+ twin engine
+ warming indo-us relations
+ potential powerful carrier plane for the indian carrier plans
- speed
- very ugly (complete waste of metal and electronics)

Rafale:
+ multi-role
+ very good performer
+ already strong defence ties (mirage 2000)
+ twin engine
+ potential powerful carrier plane for the indian carrier plans
+ availability
+ modern design
- further development in doubt as there are few users (France and India) and low numbers so far

Typhoon:
+ great performer
+ best dogfighter
+ already strong defence ties with the British
+ twin engine
+ modern design
+ enormous growth potential with lots of developments already on the way
+ sexy
+ availability
- multi-role not yet proven
- expensive

Gripen:
+ multi-role
+ new but proven design
+ offered by the British (see above)
+ low purchasing and operating cost
+ easy to maintain
- range and speed
- weapon load
- in some respects competitor to the Tejas

Flanker:
+ multi-role
+ twin engine
+ best range
+ very good performer
+ Flanker already in service
+ low price tag
+ very strong defence ties with russia
- old design
- diversification issues
- probably inferior to western contenders in terms of avionics (sensor fusion, situational awareness, etc.) and reportedly in ergonomics

Fulcrum:
+ multi-role
+ twin engine
+ good performer
+ low price tag
+ very strong defence ties with russia
- old design
- diversification issues
- probably inferior to western contenders in terms of avionics (sensor fusion, situational awareness, etc.) and reportedly in ergonomics

 

[jaffo4011]

im not sure that the iaf have a big problem with costs.they want the best aircraft that they can possibly get and if there isnt a massive variance in prices between the top,most closely matched aircraft then it wont be the price that decides it.
what they are looking for,i think,is the best package that can be continually developed to provide dominance over the pakistan and chinese airforces for the next 10/20 yrs.the best contenders in that respect remain the typhoon,rafale and possibly gripen.the f35 is a non starter i believe.the iafs preference is obviously for an air superiority aircraft primarily with good air to ground capabilities also...not thre other way around.as far as i am aware the f35 is optimised in the air to ground role and doesnt offer the same air to air capabilities as the typhoon.(ill be interested to see how the typhoon fares against the f35 when the royal navy get to exercise against them in the future).
in any case the wait for the f35 would be far too long as per waylanders comments.

 

[Falstaff]

In this context it is very interesting to read about the Norwegian fighter contest, e.g. the very good coverage on DID:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...faces-continued-dogfights-in-norway/index.php

It says that the F-35 is disputed by some defence officials because it lacks range and speed, it's stealth characteristics will be negated by new radar developments and because it was primarily designed for air to ground roles. Same range and speed issues for the gripen.

But that's a littlebit off topic now, I don't thik it's a contender here...

 

[Dr Phobus]

I do not agree on the lack of range for the F-35, after all the UK, Australia italy are using it too replace its range is much larger strike warplanes like the Tornado and F-111. Moreover, F-35 has better rang than a lot of IAF's combat planes at present like floggers, eariler fulcrums and jags. I argue for the Mig-35 now, for the MRCA requirment, then, in 8 yrs for so, go for the F-35 to replace other warplanes after the US/India replacement has matured. Of course, the IAF buying something bigger, more capable like Rafale would be something many of us would like too see.