New details on FREMM AAW variant

contedicavour

New Member
The prestigious meretmarine.com site has written that the French Navy has started 2 months ago a detailed study of a AAW variant of FREMM based on a more powerful Herakles radar (150km range), 48 VLS (the usual 32 for Aster-15 plus the 16 aft that would be used for Aster-30 instead of land-attack scalp naval), no long range radar (simply not enough space).
The plan is that the first batch of 8 approved FREMM FFGs would include 2 AAW variants to replace the 2 Cassard AAW FFGs that still use SM1 around 2018.
Italy is following a similar path (the FREMM are binational Franco-Italian but it seems the 2 countries are going at it alone in their search for a AAW variant) with the active phased array version of EMPAR.
Greece may join the French or the Italians in their search for 4 to 6 AAW FFGs.

If the cost remains around 350 million euro per ship (excl weapons and non recurrent R&D costs) then there might be a wider market...

cheers
 

European

New Member
Meretmarine reports a total cost for 2 FREDA (FREmm Defence Aniaerienne) of 1,1 bilion €.
It means 550 milions € for a frigate AAW without long range radar (S1850) and a multipurpose radar (Herakles.... many doubts..) that is not capable to be a Empar nor a S1850 :eek:nfloorl:
It will be not a good AAW frigate comparable to the Horizon/Type45 class or Bazan class.
A new Horizon (costs of R&D already amortized) is around 700-800 milions €.
It will be better to have a 3rd Horizon than 2 fake AAW frigates as FreDA to protect the battle group of a blue water (that MN claims to be).

I'm sure that FreDA will be a good choice for litoral defense.

Surely not good to defend a naval group of a blue water navy with supercarriers (such as PA2/CVF or nuclear CdG).
It's already a mistake to have only 2 frigates AAW (Horizon) and now another mistake. France wants to save money with un upgrade of Fremm and a extension of life service for the aeging Cassard (system Tartar with SM1 ).

The RN choose a minimum of 6 Type45 to protect the fleet and the 2 CVF. How could MN to protect a PA2/CVF and the CdG or the 'Aeronaval' with 2 Horizons???

I can't imagine CdG or PA2 in Taiwanese sea or off to Iranian costs escorted by a Cassard or Fremm AAW without a long range radar.
A lot of SU-30MK or Mig29 will enjoy......
 

contedicavour

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3
Meretmarine reports a total cost for 2 FREDA (FREmm Defence Aniaerienne) of 1,1 bilion €.
It means 550 milions € for a frigate AAW without long range radar (S1850) and a multipurpose radar (Herakles.... many doubts..) that is not capable to be a Empar nor a S1850 :eek:nfloorl:
It will be not a good AAW frigate comparable to the Horizon/Type45 class or Bazan class.
A new Horizon (costs of R&D already amortized) is around 700-800 milions €.
It will be better to have a 3rd Horizon than 2 fake AAW frigates as FreDA to protect the battle group of a blue water (that MN claims to be).

I'm sure that FreDA will be a good choice for litoral defense.

Surely not good to defend a naval group of a blue water navy with supercarriers (such as PA2/CVF or nuclear CdG).
It's already a mistake to have only 2 frigates AAW (Horizon) and now another mistake. France wants to save money with un upgrade of Fremm and a extension of life service for the aeging Cassard (system Tartar with SM1 ).

The RN choose a minimum of 6 Type45 to protect the fleet and the 2 CVF. How could MN to protect a PA2/CVF and the CdG or the 'Aeronaval' with 2 Horizons???

I can't imagine CdG or PA2 in Taiwanese sea or off to Iranian costs escorted by a Cassard or Fremm AAW without a long range radar.
A lot of SU-30MK or Mig29 will enjoy......
Well if you lack enough money to build 2 new Horizons the AAW FREMM can be a good alternative provided the navy knows what limitations this means (as you say, not the best tool to defend from the Chinese air force SU30s...). There is also a way around the problem : keep the older DDGs (as our 1990s De la Penne DDGs) with their long range radar and use them in association with the AAW FREMMs. This is fine until 2018 for France (deletion date of Cassards) and 2022 (deletion date of DLP DDGs)

cheers
 

European

New Member
Well if you lack enough money to build 2 new Horizons the AAW FREMM can be a good alternative provided the navy knows what limitations this means (as you say, not the best tool to defend from the Chinese air force SU30s...). There is also a way around the problem : keep the older DDGs (as our 1990s De la Penne DDGs) with their long range radar and use them in association with the AAW FREMMs. This is fine until 2018 for France (deletion date of Cassards) and 2022 (deletion date of DLP DDGs)

cheers
I meant that is better to have 1 more Horizon and 1 more Fremm GP (general purpose). 3 Horizons are the minimum to provide at least 1 always ready to escort the aircraft carrier group.
1 more Horizon with 48+16 vls for Aster 30 and a long range radar will be far better than 2 FremmDA with a multipourpose radar (aka Herakles).
 

contedicavour

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #5
I meant that is better to have 1 more Horizon and 1 more Fremm GP (general purpose). 3 Horizons are the minimum to provide at least 1 always ready to escort the aircraft carrier group.
1 more Horizon with 48+16 vls for Aster 30 and a long range radar will be far better than 2 FremmDA with a multipourpose radar (aka Herakles).
Hmm yes but there won't be any new Horizons, the programme is completed and won't be restarted... and by the time we replace the De la Penne a real new DDG would have be to a stretched version of fremm, ie spend a huge bundle of extra R&D cash, etc for 1 ship !?
That's why I'd rather get a AAW FREMM than a very hypothetical 1+ bn euro DDG...

cheers
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Hmm yes but there won't be any new Horizons, the programme is completed and won't be restarted... and by the time we replace the De la Penne a real new DDG would have be to a stretched version of fremm, ie spend a huge bundle of extra R&D cash, etc for 1 ship !?
That's why I'd rather get a AAW FREMM than a very hypothetical 1+ bn euro DDG...

cheers
Bah. Don't waste money on R&D, just build Type 45s under licence. :D
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Hmm yes but there won't be any new Horizons, the programme is completed and won't be restarted... and by the time we replace the De la Penne a real new DDG would have be to a stretched version of fremm, ie spend a huge bundle of extra R&D cash, etc for 1 ship !?
That's why I'd rather get a AAW FREMM than a very hypothetical 1+ bn euro DDG...

cheers
stupid question i know the French Horizon program has finished but to build a 3rd Horizon all they would need to do is order the long lead items [if the politicos approve] and it wouldn't be too tricky to build a 3rd ships

the French DDG programs are making me shudder :shudder its seems strange that the French don't build the Italians AAW FREMMs with the EMPAR radar rather than use the unsuited Herkleas radar for the task of AAW and makes the FREMMs less relent on the Cassard class to cue targets. i like others feel this forces is inadequates for the French assets CDG, PA2[the Italians have more capable assets in AAW] ect in dangerous areas.
 

European

New Member
stupid question i know the French Horizon program has finished but to build a 3rd Horizon all they would need to do is order the long lead items [if the politicos approve] and it wouldn't be too tricky to build a 3rd ships

the French DDG programs are making me shudder :shudder its seems strange that the French don't build the Italians AAW FREMMs with the EMPAR radar rather than use the unsuited Herkleas radar for the task of AAW and makes the FREMMs less relent on the Cassard class to cue targets. i like others feel this forces is inadequates for the French assets CDG, PA2[the Italians have more capable assets in AAW] ect in dangerous areas.
Exactly,
to build a erd Horizon is still possible and will save a lot of money. Better if both France and Italy decide to build a new one for both. 2 new Horizons.

The question is that a Fremm with Herakles 150km (gosh....... at least the italian will have the Empar 200km) and a Cassard with a Tartar SM1 are really useless to protect the fleet against modern threats and modern aircrafts.

This new FremmDA sounds to me as the new aid to the national industry DCNS for the hull and Thales France for the radar Herakles.
I would like to know if a sailorman in Taiwan Sea will feel more protect by a Horizon or a FremmDA/Cassard :confused: :confused:

All right, at least the french navy can ask to the spanish to provide one of the 6 F-100 Aegis if necessary (as already did...).
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
its seems strange that the French don't build the Italians AAW FREMMs with the EMPAR radar rather than use the unsuited Herkleas radar for the task of AAW and makes the FREMMs less relent on the Cassard class to cue targets.
They wouldn't rely on a Cassard to provide long-range radar information. Charles de Gaulle has an almost-identical radar suite as fitted to the Cassard class (some components upgraded, some additional - especially better in low-altitude).

3D Air search radar of the Cassard suite (and Charles de Gaulle) has a range of 360+ km, secondary layer is a 180+ km air search radar. Charles de Gaulle has a third 110+ km layer with an air/surface search radar, and only beyond that the fire-control radars related to the weapons suite even begin (for CdG, 70+ km Arabel 3D for the Aster 15).

I don't see much problems with an escort and its multi-function radar operating at the second layer, as long as it works reliable.
 

contedicavour

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
I've got the feeling the French government wants export contracts (starting with Greece and South Africa) first and foremost. The Navy will make do with whatever's accepted...

cheers
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
They wouldn't rely on a Cassard to provide long-range radar information. Charles de Gaulle has an almost-identical radar suite as fitted to the Cassard class (some components upgraded, some additional - especially better in low-altitude).

3D Air search radar of the Cassard suite (and Charles de Gaulle) has a range of 360+ km, secondary layer is a 180+ km air search radar. Charles de Gaulle has a third 110+ km layer with an air/surface search radar, and only beyond that the fire-control radars related to the weapons suite even begin (for CdG, 70+ km Arabel 3D for the Aster 15).

I don't see much problems with an escort and its multi-function radar operating at the second layer, as long as it works reliable.
it will have to have to have a Cassard if it isn't escorting the carriers and is escorting LPD, and mistral class and the Herklase in my opinion isn't enough to be the primary AAW radar when a Cassard or Horizon is unavalible
 

contedicavour

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12
it will have to have to have a Cassard if it isn't escorting the carriers and is escorting LPD, and mistral class and the Herklase in my opinion isn't enough to be the primary AAW radar when a Cassard or Horizon is unavalible
Indeed. Unless there is an AWACS available above or a couple of E2C Hawkeye taking off from the De Gaulle or future CVF.

cheers
 

Galrahn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Would France offer the Horizon as an option for the RFP for an air defense destroyer for India?

I'm trying to think about who will compete against Russia on that contract, it seems to me that the Horizon is as good if not a better option than anything out there, as it defaults a configuration listed in the RFP, as opposed to competitors who would have to design a new ship.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Would France offer the Horizon as an option for the RFP for an air defense destroyer for India?

I'm trying to think about who will compete against Russia on that contract, it seems to me that the Horizon is as good if not a better option than anything out there, as it defaults a configuration listed in the RFP, as opposed to competitors who would have to design a new ship.
isn't horizon too large and expensive for the Indian RFP because i thought that the a modified FREMM even a lengthen LAFFAYET and the Indians don't seem to be interested in ASTER
 

contedicavour

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #15
isn't horizon too large and expensive for the Indian RFP because i thought that the a modified FREMM even a lengthen LAFFAYET and the Indians don't seem to be interested in ASTER
absolutely, DCN will propose a modified FREMM.
That's why I suspect DCN is preparing the AAW FREMM more for Greece, SA and potentially India than for the French Navy's own requirements. Even if this is course politically uncorrect and they'll always deny it.

cheers
 
Herakles Radar

3D air domain coverage: 0 to 250 Km

Surface domain: coverage 80 Km

Track capacity> 500 air+surface

Fully capable with Aster 15/30

All of this information is at the Thales-naval online site.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I don't beleieve that Thales is a good source....
Errr, sure.

Well, you could go to DSTA (as they're the only user of Herakles), but i really, really doubt they'd be exactly forthcoming with such information. ;)

Anyone got Jane's Radar and Electronic Warfare Systems handy?

(the 2002 estimated/proposed values don't match either the "low-end" nor the "high-end" data given in this thread)
 
Singapore uses the Herakles on it's new frigates. What proof do have that the Thales information is false?

(What 2002 estimated proposed values? values for Herakles)
 
Top