President Trumps election & its possible impacts on NZ defence policy

ngatimozart

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I though that we could have a little discussion upon the topic of President Trumps election & its possible impacts on NZ defence policy. Before we get started just a reminder about the rules regarding politics.

In his campaigning for the election Trump stated that he expected other nations to pay for their defence and that allies and friends would have to pay for the cost of US forces in their territory or said US forces would pack up and leave. If other nations are not willing to pay for their defence then Trump said why should the US expend treasure and blood in doing so. However apart from that Trump has given very little in the way of policy so we don't know what kind of foreign and defence policy direction that he is going to take. He has also said that he will put 45% tariffs upon Chinese imports into the US which will thrill Beijing no end, not. Another and more important point is who and how good his advisers are and more importantly will he listen to them and heed their advice or will he ignore them and will it be his way or the highway?

Bringing this to a NZ context, Trump is anti trade so basically the TPPA is dead in the water as far as the US context is concerned, plus NZ imports into the US could expect significant tariffs being placed upon them. He also says that he is unilaterally going to withdraw from trade deals like NAFTA, which will be bad for Mexico and the Canadians. Also the Aussies might find that their FTA with the US is sunk as well. All of this creates economic uncertainty which impacts upon the NZGs revenue.

Historically the NZGs have a record for being somewhat stingy on defence, especially when they have had a large nation as a backstop. The UK when we were part of the British Empire until 1945 and after the WW2 the US until 1986. In 1991 Ruth Richardson delivered her "Mother of All Budgets" which drastically reduced defence expenditure from around 2% GDP to around 1.4 - 1.6% GDP which was a reduction of 23%. The Jim Bolger National Party govt was on an across the board govt cost cutting spree and they were using the gas axe and chain saw methodology. As the decade progressed and the Labour govt was elected in 1998 defence funding allocations gradually decreased as a % of GDP. Starting in 1991 and since then each decrease and subsequent refusal to increase has always been because the country can't afford it, which is a fallacy used as a political expedient in order to pursue ideological goals.

So now we have a US that may turn inward and become somewhat isolationist requiring other countries to take greater, if not, full responsibility (read financial i.e., pay for) for their defence and security requirements which will be anathema to Treasury and NZ pollies. The question is will this be enough of a jolt to encourage the NZG to return to properly funding NZDF; minimum the NATO standard of 2%GDP? Or will they be like the ostrich and bury their head in the sand?
 
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King Wally

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It's not great news for countries like NZ who have grown comfortable operating on an ever reducing defence budget.

Who is to say if it means serious developments or simply a little anxiety over the next 4 years. Either way I feel it would be prudent for everyone globally to take a serious look at that 2% of GDP figure and do something about aiming toward it sooner rather then later.
 

Hone C

Active Member
It's early days yet of course, and this election was quite light on policy detail, but I think the US will probably look to 'delegate' more regional tasks to allies under a Trump Presidency. We will need to start looking a bit more carefully at filling capability gaps that exist with regard to both our own defence forces and our closest regional allies, as we may be expected to pull a lot more of the weight that has previously been taken by the US.

Ngati, while NZ as a small open economy will take a hit from any trade wars that break out, in the Asia Pacific especially, and the TTP is almost certainly dead in the water (as Key as stated already), Trump will get reined in by the US House. Without diving into US politics too deeply House Republicans don't agree with Trumps mercantalist views and will likely oppose any attempt to impose trade barriers. We'll have to wait and see how this plays out I suppose.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I have to disagree. The US House spends 75% of its time looking for money to fight the next election. They have to do this every 2 years which explains why it is now so dysfunctional. For the first time in years, House Republicans don't have to listen to the "special interests and establishment types" as these groups did nothing to support Trump. People elected Trump to see change. If House Republicans oppose Trump and block his changes they may well end up being tossed in primaries prior to the next election.
 

ngatimozart

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I have to disagree. The US House spends 75% of its time looking for money to fight the next election. They have to do this every 2 years which explains why it is now so dysfunctional. For the first time in years, House Republicans don't have to listen to the "special interests and establishment types" as these groups did nothing to support Trump. People elected Trump to see change. If House Republicans oppose Trump and block his changes they may well end up being tossed in primaries prior to the next election.
I would disagree with that because Trump put a lot of his own money up. The special Interest Groups, such as the NRA, AIPAC etc., are well funded and they have the still have the ability to influence a lot of congress critters at election time, because they fund them. No career pollie is going to turn down donations, especially if it is in 5, 6 and 7 figure amounts.
 

ngatimozart

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It's early days yet of course, and this election was quite light on policy detail, but I think the US will probably look to 'delegate' more regional tasks to allies under a Trump Presidency. We will need to start looking a bit more carefully at filling capability gaps that exist with regard to both our own defence forces and our closest regional allies, as we may be expected to pull a lot more of the weight that has previously been taken by the US.

Ngati, while NZ as a small open economy will take a hit from any trade wars that break out, in the Asia Pacific especially, and the TTP is almost certainly dead in the water (as Key as stated already), Trump will get reined in by the US House. Without diving into US politics too deeply House Republicans don't agree with Trumps mercantalist views and will likely oppose any attempt to impose trade barriers. We'll have to wait and see how this plays out I suppose.
I would agree with most of your post. It will be a wait and see time and we have 2 and a bit months until his inauguration. John F bought up an interesting point on another thread. He posted a link to an Ottawa newspaper story and he mentioned that the possibly of Trump threatening to dump NAFTA unless Canada pulls its finger out and ups its defence game may be cause for the Canadian pollies to have a change of heart about defence funding. For the year to ending in June 2016 NZ exported NZ$8.3 billion worth of goods and services to the US. If Trump decided to play hardball and told the NZG that unless NZ ups its game with defence and commits to defence expenditure of at least 2% then the US will slap a tariff of 35% on NZ goods and services that are exported to the US. 35% of $8.3 billion is $2.9 billion and that is going to make a lot of NZ producers squeal long and loud. The Kiwi producers are already nervous now. I am not saying that it is going to happen but the possibility exists and Trump is hard nosed.
 

ngatimozart

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A couple of excerpts from a NZ Herald article: NZ worried about changes to climate, defence and values under a Trump presidency
Government and experts are starting to count the potential cost of a Donald Trump Presidency to New Zealand's climate change commitments, its defence ties, and even its core values.

The first casualty of Trump's win appeared to be the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP), a trade deal between 12 Pacific Rim countries - including New Zealand - which has been completed but not ratified.

Prime Minister John Key conceded today that Trump's opposition to the TPP meant it was probably dead in the water.

Key said it was now "very hard to see TPP progressing ... in that lame duck period".
...

Professor of Strategic Studies Robert Ayson, of Victoria University, said a Trump Presidency was unlikely to reverse the growing NZ-US relationship.

But New Zealand might be expected to do more in its own backyard under the new president, he said.

"In the case of an event in the South Pacific or even north of Australia, the US might delegate the role to us," Ayson said.

Trump has criticised the US' traditional allies and others for not pulling their weight on international affairs and defence.

Of greater concern was the broader movement which Trump was a part of, including Brexit, which challenges the open, tolerant democratic system which New Zealand belongs to.

"This is the big concern, that the fabric of domestic and international society as we know it - that's not so sure anymore," Ayson said.

"Bit by bit the commitments to these values and to these ways of doing things politically are being chipped away.

"That's the thing that bothers me and that's not good for New Zealand at all."

New Zealand was one of the "bastions of reason", he said, but "the islands of reason are being surrounded by bigger seas of unreason".
Robert Aysons comments are worth taking note of.
 

John Fedup

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I would disagree with that because Trump put a lot of his own money up. The special Interest Groups, such as the NRA, AIPAC etc., are well funded and they have the still have the ability to influence a lot of congress critters at election time, because they fund them. No career pollie is going to turn down donations, especially if it is in 5, 6 and 7 figure amounts.
I don't think Trump or Republican reps would have a problem with the the NRA for the most part. I am referring to some of the wackjob social conservative types that have somewhat of a grip on the party. These types don't reflect most republicans' priorities.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
So now we have a US that may turn inward and become somewhat isolationist requiring other countries to take greater, if not, full responsibility (read financial i.e., pay for) for their defence and security requirements which will be anathema to Treasury and NZ pollies. The question is will this be enough of a jolt to encourage the NZG to return to properly funding NZDF; minimum the NATO standard of 2%GDP? Or will they be like the ostrich and bury their head in the sand?
Only four NATO countries consistanly spend 2% or above the rest don't, most don't even come close.

http://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/pdf_2016_07/20160704_160704-pr2016-116.pdf

I guess Trumps intentions re US defence (if they come to fruition), will incurr a drastic rise in defence spending in Europe, lets face it why should the US carry the financial can, this might fitler through to NZ.
 

KiwiRob

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I have to disagree. The US House spends 75% of its time looking for money to fight the next election. They have to do this every 2 years which explains why it is now so dysfunctional. For the first time in years, House Republicans don't have to listen to the "special interests and establishment types" as these groups did nothing to support Trump. People elected Trump to see change. If House Republicans oppose Trump and block his changes they may well end up being tossed in primaries prior to the next election.

If Trump is able to reform the electoral system in the US and in particular manage to install term limits then the issue of campaign financing become significantly less important.
 

John Fedup

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If Trump is able to reform the electoral system in the US and in particular manage to install term limits then the issue of campaign financing become significantly less important.
Frankly I am not sure of the logistics involved in changing electoral rules. Term limits might be possible but that is not so much the problem. It is the House mandate period of only two years. I think a four term makes more sense and have only a portion of the House up for election. The Senate term is six years with one third up for election every two years. A four year term with half the House up for election every two years would least have these pollies putting in a few more hours at work between fund raisers. Afterwards, a discussion on term limits for all four branches might be the next step.
 

2007yellow430

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Frankly I am not sure of the logistics involved in changing electoral rules. Term limits might be possible but that is not so much the problem. It is the House mandate period of only two years. I think a four term makes more sense and have only a portion of the House up for election. The Senate term is six years with one third up for election every two years. A four year term with half the House up for election every two years would least have these pollies putting in a few more hours at work between fund raisers. Afterwards, a discussion on term limits for all four branches might be the next step.
Term limits will never happen. The terms are set by the constitution. It would take an amendment, and that requires 38 states to ratify it. Never going to happen.

Art
 

kiwipatriot69

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Only four NATO countries consistanly spend 2% or above the rest don't, most don't even come close.

http://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/pdf_2016_07/20160704_160704-pr2016-116.pdf

I guess Trumps intentions re US defence (if they come to fruition), will incurr a drastic rise in defence spending in Europe, lets face it why should the US carry the financial can, this might fitler through to NZ.
I was thinking more in context to the South China Seas and Nz current operations, if we were expected to carry out patrols there, it would mean a drastic increase in funding, would our current anti pirate patrols of the horn of Africa continue? given we only have two frigates, could a upgunned Opv do the job? Will new P8 aircraft, other big ticket items now become a must have in our Defence whitepaper now.
 

ngatimozart

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Only four NATO countries consistanly spend 2% or above the rest don't, most don't even come close.

http://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/pdf_2016_07/20160704_160704-pr2016-116.pdf

I guess Trumps intentions re US defence (if they come to fruition), will incurr a drastic rise in defence spending in Europe, lets face it why should the US carry the financial can, this might filter through to NZ.
I actually agree with the ideal that nations should pay for their defence and the US taxpayer shouldn't have to pay for it. In the case of NZ pollies and Treasury I think your filter should be a very large sledgehammer swung at high velocity. :rolleyes: Of course the large sledgehammer is the Ministry Of Works (now extinct) repair tool Number 3.

Winston must be loving this overseas trend of the populist pollie winning. He would be thinking now that he will unseat the current NZG at the next election. Gawd his ego doesn't need a boost like that :D The interesting thing about the Brexit vote and the Trump election is does this point to a sea change in politics within the western world with neoliberalism and globalism being given the heave ho?
 

cdxbow

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I actually agree with the ideal that nations should pay for their defence and the US taxpayer shouldn't have to pay for it. In the case of NZ pollies and Treasury I think your filter should be a very large sledgehammer swung at high velocity. :rolleyes: Of course the large sledgehammer is the Ministry Of Works (now extinct) repair tool Number 3.

Winston must be loving this overseas trend of the populist pollie winning. He would be thinking now that he will unseat the current NZG at the next election. Gawd his ego doesn't need a boost like that :D The interesting thing about the Brexit vote and the Trump election is does this point to a sea change in politics within the western world with neoliberalism and globalism being given the heave ho?
Not just neoliberalism, but liberal democracy is on it's knees. The left is dead, the centre is dying. It's creeping Facism across the globe, Russian & China are already pretty close to the line in that respect, Ultra right, racist parties are likely to make significant gains in the next lot of EU elections, and the rise of President Trump, with his personality, is very likely to take the USA down that dark path. It's same toxic brew that we saw last century.
 

Rob c

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Not just neoliberalism, but liberal democracy is on it's knees. The left is dead, the centre is dying. It's creeping Facism across the globe, Russian & China are already pretty close to the line in that respect, Ultra right, racist parties are likely to make significant gains in the next lot of EU elections, and the rise of President Trump, with his personality, is very likely to take the USA down that dark path. It's same toxic brew that we saw last century.
This could be true and only time will tell..Trump at this point has not even got his own party behind him yet and will have a lot of work and compromise to achieve this, so I don't see major change for some time yet, our own next election could have a greater effect on defence policy as our current government would only be likely to apply window dressing if it came under American pressure in regard to defence.
 

ASSAIL

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Not just neoliberalism, but liberal democracy is on it's knees. The left is dead, the centre is dying. It's creeping Facism across the globe, Russian & China are already pretty close to the line in that respect, Ultra right, racist parties are likely to make significant gains in the next lot of EU elections, and the rise of President Trump, with his personality, is very likely to take the USA down that dark path. It's same toxic brew that we saw last century.
Not sure how you conclude this?
Trump was elected under the constitutional process which has delivered a vibrant democracy in the US since 1776.

The left are alive and well in all our social science teaching institutions, in many labour unions and in many modern political parties throughout the world.

Totalitarianism at both ends of the political spectrum will surface from time to time and they usually self destruct but if you are suggesting that Trumps victory will lead the US to this place you have no idea of the checks and balances within the system designed to prevent that and you pay scant regard for the the will of the people.

While many in the US feel that Trumps election does not represent their core beliefs and principles and are totally fearful and frustrated, it is no different to a similar number of working poor, dispossessed and held back by globalisation, who felt exactly the same way under previous administrations who totally ignored their predicament.

Extreme language bemoaning approaching Facism and loss of democracy serves no,purpose.
 

ngatimozart

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This could be true and only time will tell..Trump at this point has not even got his own party behind him yet and will have a lot of work and compromise to achieve this, so I don't see major change for some time yet, our own next election could have a greater effect on defence policy as our current government would only be likely to apply window dressing if it came under American pressure in regard to defence.
I wouldn't be so sure. Trump got a reasonable few Republicans across the line who otherwise wouldn't made it and this has given them control of the White House, Senate and the House. Plus Trumps political advisers will be Republicans. Come 21 January 2017 all bets are off and I think change will be quick. Sequestration which has been hampering US defence will be gone. There will be a change in defence and foreign policy. He has 68 days to get a handle on things and he and his team will be making their views known.

The NZG would have to go beyond window dressing because the US would be awake up to such ploys - they weren't born yesterday. It would have to a substantial change in attitude and commitment to defence.
 

Rob c

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I wouldn't be so sure. Trump got a reasonable few Republicans across the line who otherwise wouldn't made it and this has given them control of the White House, Senate and the House. Plus Trumps political advisers will be Republicans. Come 21 January 2017 all bets are off and I think change will be quick. Sequestration which has been hampering US defence will be gone. There will be a change in defence and foreign policy. He has 68 days to get a handle on things and he and his team will be making their views known.

The NZG would have to go beyond window dressing because the US would be awake up to such ploys - they weren't born yesterday. It would have to a substantial change in attitude and commitment to defence.
Last time the Republicans were in this position was 1928 and we know what happened then. While Trump did get some across the line there is a significant section of the old Republican establishment who don't like him and in time, this will need to be pulled together either by threats or compromise, Though I think the compromise is unlikely to come from Trump. I think we have time before significant changes happen and maybe our next election will give us a government with a more positive view of defence before any real pressure comes on from outside, as one possible coalition party does have a 2% GDP defence policy
 

cdxbow

Well-Known Member
Not sure how you conclude this?
Trump was elected under the constitutional process which has delivered a vibrant democracy in the US since 1776.

The left are alive and well in all our social science teaching institutions, in many labour unions and in many modern political parties throughout the world.

Totalitarianism at both ends of the political spectrum will surface from time to time and they usually self destruct but if you are suggesting that Trumps victory will lead the US to this place you have no idea of the checks and balances within the system designed to prevent that and you pay scant regard for the the will of the people.

While many in the US feel that Trumps election does not represent their core beliefs and principles and are totally fearful and frustrated, it is no different to a similar number of working poor, dispossessed and held back by globalisation, who felt exactly the same way under previous administrations who totally ignored their predicament.

Extreme language bemoaning approaching Facism and loss of democracy serves no,purpose.
Sorry if too extreme language, it could have been worse. I fear what you see as a vibrant democracy I saw as a horror show, one which I thought had ended but seems to have a few more scenes.

Mr Trump is so unpredictable that I don't think anyone knows what will happen, but clearly one path could be down the road to despotism given his personality and charisma. I'm trusting the democratic institutions are more robust in the modern USA than the Weimar republic and his inner circle can manage him wisely.

I don't think there is any significant 'other end of the spectrum' any more. Of the major world players, Russia and China have both gone down the ultranationalist path, both closer to typical right wing totalitarian governments than what their names suggest they are.

For American allies this is a most difficult time, unpredictable American leadership at the same time as the PRC challenge in the region. Isolationism by the USA would be one of the worst case scenarios short of war. Already in Oz it has had people calling for us to get out of the US alliance. It does also present difficulties to the PRC planners, because they can't really continue the salami slicing tactics with the same confidence of the outcome. So they have to do some thinking. Interesting times indeed.
 
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