Royal Saudi Air force
- Thread starter Scorpius
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While I'm no specialist on the matter I would assume that the majority of the iranian airforce consists of old american designs and newer russian designs as well as some very new French designs. Don't forget that Iran was once one of the US's top allies.
As for the Saudis, they're pretty chummy with the US and France, so I would assume that their designs stem primarily from those countries.
As for an ability to withstand invasion, I'm not sure that Saudi Arabia will be invaded anytime soon, too much at stake for world's superpowers there, basically it's a statemate. The superpowers won't invade because the Saudi's will turn off the oil if they do and the Saudi's won't cause a fuss because their leaders are having too great a time living it up off their oil profits.
As for Iran, I'd expect a quick campaign from the US, much like the second Iraq war, ie. a few weeks, however I'd hope that the US smarten up regarding their occupation strategy and use allied Muslim countries as peacekeeping (also known as occupational) forces, ie. Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and other nations from the region (it would be great if they could get allies from the same sect of Islam too), supported by a minimal US and allied forces contingent. Either that or they train their occupation forces in proper etiquette towards Muslims. They should especially concentrate on teaching their troops to avoid touching Muslim woman and to avoid calling the Persians, Arabs.
In conclusion,
I don't see any future invasion of Saudi Arabia.
I see an invasion of Iran by US and allies, quick campaign victory for US and allies, predominantly non-US occupational forces made up mostly of Muslim allies (most US forces are also tied up in Iraq)
As for the Saudis, they're pretty chummy with the US and France, so I would assume that their designs stem primarily from those countries.
As for an ability to withstand invasion, I'm not sure that Saudi Arabia will be invaded anytime soon, too much at stake for world's superpowers there, basically it's a statemate. The superpowers won't invade because the Saudi's will turn off the oil if they do and the Saudi's won't cause a fuss because their leaders are having too great a time living it up off their oil profits.
As for Iran, I'd expect a quick campaign from the US, much like the second Iraq war, ie. a few weeks, however I'd hope that the US smarten up regarding their occupation strategy and use allied Muslim countries as peacekeeping (also known as occupational) forces, ie. Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and other nations from the region (it would be great if they could get allies from the same sect of Islam too), supported by a minimal US and allied forces contingent. Either that or they train their occupation forces in proper etiquette towards Muslims. They should especially concentrate on teaching their troops to avoid touching Muslim woman and to avoid calling the Persians, Arabs.
In conclusion,
I don't see any future invasion of Saudi Arabia.
I see an invasion of Iran by US and allies, quick campaign victory for US and allies, predominantly non-US occupational forces made up mostly of Muslim allies (most US forces are also tied up in Iraq)
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #4
rofl
for your info India has been aggressive ,a lot aggresive nowadays towards Bangladeshis on the border.BSF killed a lot of people on the last few months.In the name of killing terrorists ofcourse while actually turned out to be farmers.anyways back on topic.....
the purchase of the Typhoons may make the KSA air force somewhat more powerful than the Israeli air force in some aspects although I know nothing about the skill of the RSAF pilots.they actually got Pakistani officers there.
for your info India has been aggressive ,a lot aggresive nowadays towards Bangladeshis on the border.BSF killed a lot of people on the last few months.In the name of killing terrorists ofcourse while actually turned out to be farmers.anyways back on topic.....
the purchase of the Typhoons may make the KSA air force somewhat more powerful than the Israeli air force in some aspects although I know nothing about the skill of the RSAF pilots.they actually got Pakistani officers there.
Scorpius said:
I'm aware of the skirmishing on the border, and of the violations (supposed?) of airspace by the IAF.
The IDF has already formally informed the US of its wish for F-22's, and in light of the KSA EF2000 purchase, I don't expect that in too long the order for F-22's destined to Israel will be approved. The USAF is more than happy to ok such purchase 'cause it means that the line remains open (the JASDF has recently visited Langley AFB to observe F22 ops at the sq level).
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #6
that happened too.
KSA's may get only 48 fighters and Israel may get what ...about the same amount or more.
Btw can someone name this thread Middle eastern Air forces Discussion or something like that?Itwould have been nice.
On second thoughts was there already another thread about this?
Forgive my ignorance but who (nationality) actually pilots Saudi airforce jets? Naturally, there's going to be Saudi's piloting some of the aircraft but from my forum meanderings, I've come across discussion of foreigners flying for Gulf State airforces... IIRC, the Pakistani's on this other board were having a bit of laugh about it.
With that in mind, I'm wondering if the Saudi's also import foreigners to fly their aircraft.
With that in mind, I'm wondering if the Saudi's also import foreigners to fly their aircraft.
Supe,
In all honesty, there does seem to be a slight over exaggeration in regards Pakistan's role with regards the RSAF. That is not to say in the past that there have been considerable numbers of PAF pilots serving within RSAF Squadrons.
Yet nowadays, apart from Saudi nationals, the vast majority of foreign pilots and ground crews out here are ex-RAF, RAAF, RNZAF, RCAF, South African, Luftwaffe or USAF. Cold War cut-backs have allowed RSAF through its contractors like BAE Systems and Boeing to employ pre-trained Tornado and F-15 crews.
In all honesty, there does seem to be a slight over exaggeration in regards Pakistan's role with regards the RSAF. That is not to say in the past that there have been considerable numbers of PAF pilots serving within RSAF Squadrons.
Yet nowadays, apart from Saudi nationals, the vast majority of foreign pilots and ground crews out here are ex-RAF, RAAF, RNZAF, RCAF, South African, Luftwaffe or USAF. Cold War cut-backs have allowed RSAF through its contractors like BAE Systems and Boeing to employ pre-trained Tornado and F-15 crews.
Well it would not be appropriate to tackle Saudi Arabia and Iran with the same stick. There might be a possibility of invading Iran, as a lot of things appear in Press these days, as the Iranians still yet to settle the matter with the IAEA.Scorpius said:
Secondly, I don't think Saudi Arabia would bear the brunt of International Politics which mainly and apparantly revolves in the garb of "War on Terror". Saudis avoids direct clash with other countries as a matter of policy. Being the custodians of Holy places, they had to be very cautious in dealing with regional and international issues.
Thirdly, if at all for the sake of discussion, the unforseen did occur, then I think it would not remain within the territorial boundaries of Saudi Arabia. The action may leads to perhaps, a third world war.
mysterious
New Member
Anyways, let's keep it military oriented here. Yes, previously quite a few PAF pilots were assigned to RSAF squadrons but nowadays the numbers are lesser as pointed out by Izzy1.
One of the reasons for this, is perhaps the increased number of cadets getting quality-oriented basic flying-training in Pakistan which helps them back home, thereby cutting back the need for Pakistani pilots to go there and sort out basic problems.
Also, Saudis give more emphasis to Special Units of Pakistan Army for protection of Royal family, national security assets, etc.
One of the reasons for this, is perhaps the increased number of cadets getting quality-oriented basic flying-training in Pakistan which helps them back home, thereby cutting back the need for Pakistani pilots to go there and sort out basic problems.
Also, Saudis give more emphasis to Special Units of Pakistan Army for protection of Royal family, national security assets, etc.
I honestly doubt either country will get "invaded", indeed the circumstances of both countries are totally different.
I have little doubt in regards to Iran, that some form of sustained western air campaign to incapacitate Iran's nuclear ambitions is inevitable. Whole sale invasion however would invite an occupation which would make that in Iraq seem probably pretty tame.
As for Saudi though, the only scenario I can see for some form of military action would be if the House of Saud and the current Riyadh Government were removed by anti-western forces. In such an event, I would predict that US/Allied forces from Iraq would cross the border south and secure the Eastern coastal provinces of Saudi - which is the location of Saudi's oil fields and 25% of the world's most commercially viable crude stocks.
Yet in all honesty, I doubt whether Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsular (AQAP) or any other potential anti-western group have either the organisation or capability to seriously challenge the Government in Riyadh. The Saudis have been exceptionally effective in their counter-terrorist campaign - two years ago, most of Saudi's major metropolitan areas were all suffering near daily terrorist incidents. Yet within 24 months, the situation has changed dramatically and the security forces do seem currently to be one step ahead of the "deviant elements".
Yet, just as a footnote. There are an estimated 5,000 Saudi nationals involved in the insurgency in Iraq - and this figure may be grossly underestimated (some local media speculate the true number may be three times that). If these experienced, combat-hardened veterans were to return home and muster for similar operations in Saudi, the situation here could change very rapidly.
I have little doubt in regards to Iran, that some form of sustained western air campaign to incapacitate Iran's nuclear ambitions is inevitable. Whole sale invasion however would invite an occupation which would make that in Iraq seem probably pretty tame.
As for Saudi though, the only scenario I can see for some form of military action would be if the House of Saud and the current Riyadh Government were removed by anti-western forces. In such an event, I would predict that US/Allied forces from Iraq would cross the border south and secure the Eastern coastal provinces of Saudi - which is the location of Saudi's oil fields and 25% of the world's most commercially viable crude stocks.
Yet in all honesty, I doubt whether Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsular (AQAP) or any other potential anti-western group have either the organisation or capability to seriously challenge the Government in Riyadh. The Saudis have been exceptionally effective in their counter-terrorist campaign - two years ago, most of Saudi's major metropolitan areas were all suffering near daily terrorist incidents. Yet within 24 months, the situation has changed dramatically and the security forces do seem currently to be one step ahead of the "deviant elements".
Yet, just as a footnote. There are an estimated 5,000 Saudi nationals involved in the insurgency in Iraq - and this figure may be grossly underestimated (some local media speculate the true number may be three times that). If these experienced, combat-hardened veterans were to return home and muster for similar operations in Saudi, the situation here could change very rapidly.
There is going to be no invasion of Saudi Arabia & Iran.
Iran is not like Iraq. Iraq was divided into Shias & Sunnis & anti-Saddam population. There was an opposition, thats why the invasion was successful (only in terms of taking over - invade & rule has been failure in both Iraq and Afghanistan). Also the Iraqi neighbours were willing to provide support & super power like China & former super power Russia did nothing influencial to stop the invasion.
Iran however is different story. Overwhelming majority of Muslim population is Shi'a & the sunnis & other minorities (Jews & Christians) hate Americans as much as the Shi'as. There is an opposition, which dreams abt the old Shah Of Iran, but they dont realy matter in Iranian politics & most of them are living in U.S & European.
The Iranian nieghbours, although Pro-West & right now allied with US, dont favor the Iranian invasion and have already convayed it to U.S.
-Iraqi Shi'a majority favors Iran & they just won an election.
-Pakistan is more allied to China than US and is supporting Chinese stand on diplomatic solution, besides that there is significant number (although a minority) of people who are anti-US & will unleash havoc if Pakistan provides support to US. Not to forget the Pakistani shias. What Pakistani administration would like is to keep out.
-Afghanistan is under 'Norther Alliance' which actualy Tajik & Persian rather than Pashtoon. Many of them are also Shias. They wont support US led invasion.
-Turkey is kind of quite but many experts say they would like to keep out.
Thats the reason U.S never invaded Iran, not even to rescue its own people which were taken hostage after the revolution. Entering Iran is entering hell.
Coming to the proper discussion on AirForce. It would only take USAF & Navy couple of days to bring the Iranian airforce down but again why go for air attack when u cant invade. The best U.S can do is go for air strikes on Iranian nuclear facility but that again invites trouble for US.
All in all US cant strike or Invade Iran. They cant afford to. Thats why they went to Security Council to threaten Iran with sanctions.
About Saudi Arabia. The Holy Cities of Mecca & Madina are in Saudi Arabia & non Muslims are not allowed there. Invasion of Saudi Arabia will only spark anti-America, Inti-U.k and Anti-Israel sentiments even amongst the most moderate of Muslims. It will turn the ones we call 'terrorists' to 'heros' & along with mass number of allied muslim soldiers from Muslim countries a mass number of regular civilians from different countries will end up joining the war against US. Every thing will fail.
US can invade Saudis but it can hold it with out going into Mecca & Madina. If they go in the above happens, if they dont large number of 'Mujahidins' will gather in two cities and strike Americans.
Coming to the air strikes. I dont realy see any thing in Saudi Arabia worth air strikes. US wont attack the oil fields.
Both areas are a 'no go area' & for americans there is only one way ticket.
Iran is not like Iraq. Iraq was divided into Shias & Sunnis & anti-Saddam population. There was an opposition, thats why the invasion was successful (only in terms of taking over - invade & rule has been failure in both Iraq and Afghanistan). Also the Iraqi neighbours were willing to provide support & super power like China & former super power Russia did nothing influencial to stop the invasion.
Iran however is different story. Overwhelming majority of Muslim population is Shi'a & the sunnis & other minorities (Jews & Christians) hate Americans as much as the Shi'as. There is an opposition, which dreams abt the old Shah Of Iran, but they dont realy matter in Iranian politics & most of them are living in U.S & European.
The Iranian nieghbours, although Pro-West & right now allied with US, dont favor the Iranian invasion and have already convayed it to U.S.
-Iraqi Shi'a majority favors Iran & they just won an election.
-Pakistan is more allied to China than US and is supporting Chinese stand on diplomatic solution, besides that there is significant number (although a minority) of people who are anti-US & will unleash havoc if Pakistan provides support to US. Not to forget the Pakistani shias. What Pakistani administration would like is to keep out.
-Afghanistan is under 'Norther Alliance' which actualy Tajik & Persian rather than Pashtoon. Many of them are also Shias. They wont support US led invasion.
-Turkey is kind of quite but many experts say they would like to keep out.
Thats the reason U.S never invaded Iran, not even to rescue its own people which were taken hostage after the revolution. Entering Iran is entering hell.
Coming to the proper discussion on AirForce. It would only take USAF & Navy couple of days to bring the Iranian airforce down but again why go for air attack when u cant invade. The best U.S can do is go for air strikes on Iranian nuclear facility but that again invites trouble for US.
All in all US cant strike or Invade Iran. They cant afford to. Thats why they went to Security Council to threaten Iran with sanctions.
About Saudi Arabia. The Holy Cities of Mecca & Madina are in Saudi Arabia & non Muslims are not allowed there. Invasion of Saudi Arabia will only spark anti-America, Inti-U.k and Anti-Israel sentiments even amongst the most moderate of Muslims. It will turn the ones we call 'terrorists' to 'heros' & along with mass number of allied muslim soldiers from Muslim countries a mass number of regular civilians from different countries will end up joining the war against US. Every thing will fail.
US can invade Saudis but it can hold it with out going into Mecca & Madina. If they go in the above happens, if they dont large number of 'Mujahidins' will gather in two cities and strike Americans.
Coming to the air strikes. I dont realy see any thing in Saudi Arabia worth air strikes. US wont attack the oil fields.
Both areas are a 'no go area' & for americans there is only one way ticket.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #14
Sabre that's where the problem lies.They are situated in Saudi Arabia.Saudis who think they are the only Muslims on Earth,people who think Bangladeshis are not Muslims.They are a bunch of racist people.
they let US military personnel work there in their air force which makes them very vulnerable to any sudden western attack.and the Royal Saudi morons are not exactly "defenders of Islam" or "Custodians of the two Holy mosques".
They have no morality,they are spolied brats who think they are above the law,they consort with prostitutes in Dubai.as for the Royal Princesses later.
basically they are million times more corrupt.Yes they are not only oppressed they are also corrupt.
May I know if Israel sends their elite 69th Squadron or something to attack KSA,what will the Saudis do?
hey hey buddy, calm downScorpius said:
: ... lets keep the politics out & be a bit technical & I see why u r frustrated. Thats not the way it works. The frustrated fanatic fundamentilists talk abt attacking each others holy sites but that doesnt happen. International Laws are such that these moves are impossible. Every country wants to prove it self as the good guy in international politics. If Israel does that it will end up proving what the Arab countries are trying to prove, that its the 'bad seed' in the middle east.
Besdies that Israel's geographic location is very trouble some for Israel it self. It has Syria & Jorden in the East along with Saudi Arabia & Egypt & Libya in the West & the Sourther Seas are very narrow and can be blocked by Arabs. Attacking Muslim holy sites is attacking whole Muslim world. If 12 cartoons can bring up a havoc for Denmark, imagine what will happen if Israeli 69th sqdn even flew a recon mission over holy cities.
Anyways ... Aircraft is not the only means to counter another aircraft. There are various electronic systems, SAMs etc. Its just not fly in, attack & leave. I am not expert on Saudi defence but for sure they might have some high quality surface to air system from U.S or U.K fortified near the holy cities.
Saudis have F-15s & are going to purchase EF-2000. USA would sell F-35 to Israel but no F-22s, believe me. They are expensive & US wont risk introducing such technology in middle east. It may be bias but it also has to show some responsibility. Besides US has a deal with Egypt & Jordan. If it provides some kind of aid to Israel it will also provide similar aid to Egypt & Jordon according to their requirements. Similar deals are on defence matters aswell but Israel got more in defence matters since it could afford US technology unlike Egypt & Jodon. But Egypt did manage to get 200 F-16s but no BVR system (I dnt knw why) in return of Israel's purchase of F-15s & F-16s. The reason Israel has better air defence than any of its neighbour is that it also maintains its own military industry. Anyways introducing F-22s in Israel would mean introducing similar kind of defence for Egypt & Jordan.
Another reason for US not to sell F-22s to Israel is that Israel has been secretly & now openly selling military equipement to China. Although most of the equipments sold were made in/by Israel, they incoporated US technology or was produced with the help of US. US is not happy with these moves. It may fret that Israel might show off F-22s to Chinese. Israel did sell 'Levi' project designs to China which ended in development of J-10. Levi had many F-16 characteristics & was being produced with the help of Lockheed-Martin (producers of F-16s - USA). Israel also showed around the AWACS to Chinese President and the deal almost went through. Now Chinese have come up with their own AWACs & it is believed it might have got some assistance from Israel.
Its not an easy deal. Thats why I believe that US will only sell F-35s to Israel not F-22s.
I agree with Sabre, to me it is very unlikely the US will be willing to sell F-22s to Israel or RSAF or any middle-east nation at least in this decade, besides they've clearly stablished what is their latest generation fighter for export and that is the F-35 which I think eventually would be in the inventory of the IAF as well as in RSAF almost a t the same time.
As for the current inventory of RSAF or the Iranian Air Force I think the balance favors RSAF a great deal. But attacking either nation would prove a very tough challenge in any case for reasons more thatn that of the state of their air forces alone.
Which country is more likely to be invaded in the next 10 years? I think you guys know the answer. Considering which countries are more likely to invade KSA or Iran and the current economical an political environment worldwide I think invading KSA is a prospect with too many chances to fail (for the country who dares), unlike invading Iran which would undoubtedly require a great military effort of many countries and cooperation with allies in the region, but in the end is technically feasible and becoming more a possibility the closer Iran gets to become nuclear. Also the position of KSA and Iran's government towards the US and their alies is what makes invading Iran a possibility while an invasion of Saudi Arabia something every country will try to avoid.
What do you guys think?
As for the current inventory of RSAF or the Iranian Air Force I think the balance favors RSAF a great deal. But attacking either nation would prove a very tough challenge in any case for reasons more thatn that of the state of their air forces alone.
Which country is more likely to be invaded in the next 10 years? I think you guys know the answer. Considering which countries are more likely to invade KSA or Iran and the current economical an political environment worldwide I think invading KSA is a prospect with too many chances to fail (for the country who dares), unlike invading Iran which would undoubtedly require a great military effort of many countries and cooperation with allies in the region, but in the end is technically feasible and becoming more a possibility the closer Iran gets to become nuclear. Also the position of KSA and Iran's government towards the US and their alies is what makes invading Iran a possibility while an invasion of Saudi Arabia something every country will try to avoid.
What do you guys think?
Barely two years after the F-15 entered USAF service, it began to enter IDF service. JUST TWO MEASLY YEARS!
So those of you who think that the IDF is not going to get the F-22, start counting, 'cause in less than 4 years, they're going to be flying it.
It may occur sooner if the Saudi's get the EF2000 early.
So those of you who think that the IDF is not going to get the F-22, start counting, 'cause in less than 4 years, they're going to be flying it.
It may occur sooner if the Saudi's get the EF2000 early.
That was cold war era when there was threat of Soviet Union. USA sold F-16s to Pakistan at the same time it was sold to Israel. Now US-Israel relations may not have changed but the world scenerio & the needs & requirements of Israel it self have changed. For all I know Israel has no need for F-22s. There is no Russian 5th Generation stealth fighter, specialy not in Israeli neighbourhood. Palestinian airforce only owns 2 lift helicopters & a VIP aircraft for Palestinian authority while u can bring down Egyption & Jordanian F-16s by a sling shot.Sea Dog said:
The statement that Israel and Pakistan received the F-16 "about the same time" seems to be about 3+ years off, but we'll forgive you for obvious gaff. Likewise we'll look the other way at the dramatic difference in numbers available to Israel and the PAF. AND....we'll look in another different direction as to the downgraded equipment that the EAF has received for its F-16's.SABRE said:
Don't kid yourself about the US relationship with Israel. The IDF pretty much gets almost everything it asks. It may delayed for a few years, and some equipment may not be part of the weapons system, but in the end Israel pretty much get it (and we pay for it too!).
Egypt and Pakistan are barely "allies of convenience". Notice the lack of US military aid to Pakistan for years until the Tali-nuts in Afghanistan forced us to return to those lands. Once that matter is settled once and for all, Pakistan will return to the same situation vis-a-vis US equipment.
The moral of the story is: Don't throw away the business card of the Chinese!
If IDF got F/A-22s let's say in 3 or 2 years wouldn't that be an invitation to Saudi Arabia, UAE, and other economically favoured neighbors to rush into EADS or Sukhoi's dealerships? Or as Sea Dog says, call the number in the Chinese card? And, would that be something the West would like to happen? I mean we'd have to pay for it every time we fill the tank (It's true guys in Mexico we produce and sell oil but we import most of our gasoline so we're in it as well, but that's another story). And also, what's the good part of the middle-east being engaged in a military race? What about Iran? And you can only expect extremists and paramilitary groups to get more of those 500 buck SA-3s or maybe something with a little more kick to it. A Raptor in desert fatigues would look absolutely mean but, I think IDF has more than enough already.