Iraq Buys F-16s?

[Almaleki]

Hi Mates ,

I was Concerned in Other Forum which operate with Arabic Language , i wanted to talk to the Other Guys there about the Iraqi F-16 and i couldn't answer there Questions i mean What Model are they going to be ??? i knew that they are F-16 C/D but What Block Are they ??? Block 50- / 50+ / 52- / 52+ / 60 well i know that they are not going to be ever Block 60 cuz the only country operates that would be UAE and there F-16s are more advanced than the ones with the U.S.M.C. and U.S. Army and U.S. AirForce but ??? which Block would it be for Iraq ??? and another Question Came Over what Missiles will the Iraqi F-16s will be loaded i mean AGM 114 HellFire or Mavricks ??? and are they going to be Light , Medium , Heavy Fire Units ??? and more of that i knew that Iraq will buy 36 Unit in 2011 and a total of 252 Unit By 2016 , right ?? well is there any Governmental Source Maybe ?? and FOR THE HELL did the Congress Agree to the Thing i mean i heard that LockHead Martin Pushed them Up to Agree but did they ?? and anybody have a source for that or Maybe a Copy ?? i mean the Iraqi General Ali Alaarage Used to go to Luke Base In the Ends of 2008 and experienced the Plane there but is thier God Damn Source or anything that Secure that the Iraqis will buy the Pane 100% ??? i mean i searched almost everywhere where the Heck and even if they didnt Agree is there any Decline Source or Copy , do you think that the Order is still in the Congress .

Summary :
1- What Block or Model is the F-16s ??
2- what weapons will it be Loaded ??
3- How Much Are they ??
4- did the Congress agree or even Decline ?? :lul:lul:lul

Cheers ,
Almaleki ,
Basrah - Iraq

 

[SABRE]

I have not come across Iraq F-16 deal news. What I have heard are just rumors. If Iraq buys F-16 then I suppose it depends on the F-16 production line (how long it lasts) and Iraq's economy (in future). Initially Iraq may purchase some 2nd hand F-16s (probably Block 15A/B - if available - to fill the gap) and meanwhile give orders for Block 52+ C/D. On the other hand, if Iraq has to rebuild its air force it might seriously consider Russian fighters as well (i.e. Su-30 and MiG-29).

Since we don't have any concrete source of info and details on this all we can provide you is with our speculative analysis like above.

 

[OPSSG]

@SABRE & Almaleki, I'm going to hazard a guess (to see if my guess will come true). Iraq will buy some 2nd hand F-16s from the US and they will be MLU upgraded F-16s in terms of avionics. My reasons for thinking this way, are as follows:

1. IMHO, F-16s are one of the best value for money (being single engined) multi-role aircraft in the market today (save for the Gripen and the new Korean T-50 Golden Eagle).

2. The USAF is going to retire a number of their F-16s. They can off load these planes going into storage to Iraq (which means not many other suppliers can compete on price and features). And it would be good value for money for Iraq.

3. I think the US Congress will have to agree to sell F-16s (so no problem there - there will be some noise but it will not stop the sale).

(i) The issue for me is not even the purchase price (it's the total support costs and weapons load-out that I'm more concerned for Iraq).

(ii) As for the model, I am guessing the block 50 or 52 (though I'm not so concerned about the avionics for BVR engagements with the AIM-120C).

(iii) I am more concerned about the type of targeting pods sold - as the Iraqi air force will need to provide CAS. Again, I'm much less concerned about the specific munitions or bombs for CAS at this stage.​

What do you think of my speculative analysis?

 

[OPSSG]

To some extent, the US has to worry about Iraqi stability after they leave. So they would not want to sell the most capable jets in-case the regime/government in Iraq (5 - 10 years from now) is not friendly to US interests (case in point, the selling of the F-14s to Iran before the fall of the Shah).

 

[Schumacher]

............
2. The USAF is going to retire a number of their F-16s. They can off load these planes going into storage to Iraq (which means not many other suppliers can compete on price and features). And it would be good value for money for Iraq.
.......

Retired F-16s ? New Chinese JF-17 would be much better value, they may even get joint-production as part of the deal or even pay for them with oil instead of cash which may be an attractive arrangement. Plus don't have to worry about your weapon systems package details 'leaked' to potential adversary like Israel. But of course, politics will play big part in any decision.

 

[OPSSG]

Retired F-16s ? New Chinese JF-17 would be much better value, they may even get joint-production as part of the deal or even pay for them with oil instead of cash which may be an attractive arrangement. Plus don't have to worry about your weapon systems package details 'leaked' to potential adversary like Israel. But of course, politics will play big part in any decision.

@Schumacher, please explain why the JF-17 is better or provides better value (because I don't see it)? Further, I have some questions, if you would care to address them:

(i) What is the BVR engagement mode (in terms of avionics and radar) and weapons available for the JF-17?

(ii) What is the targeting solution for the JF-17? Does the JF-17 have a SAR radar mode and can this radar deal with moving targets?

(iii) Is the JF-17 a proven multi-role plane?

(iv) Who else would buy the JF-17? And is China planning to induct the JF-17 into service?​

If you are talking about the J-10, I'll be more impressed (but they can't without Russian permission - as the J-10 is still using a Russian engine). I'm just not impressed with the JF-17.

 

[Almaleki]

I have not come across Iraq F-16 deal news. What I have heard are just rumors. If Iraq buys F-16 then I suppose it depends on the F-16 production line (how long it lasts) and Iraq's economy (in future). Initially Iraq may purchase some 2nd hand F-16s (probably Block 15A/B - if available - to fill the gap) and meanwhile give orders for Block 52+ C/D. On the other hand, if Iraq has to rebuild its air force it might seriously consider Russian fighters as well (i.e. Su-30 and MiG-29).

Since we don't have any concrete source of info and details on this all we can provide you is with our speculative analysis like above.

Too Bad cuz Our MoD Minister Dont say Russian Weapons But he Says Russian Rubbish , But the Only thing i know About Russia That They Sell there Best Tech for the Best Price SO i will be Glad to see PAK FA there but that will be After 40 Years ..

and I dont think that Iraqi MoD Minister will ever like the Idea Of Not - New Rubbish , I Dont think he Have the Word : Weapons in his dictionary ...

--------------------------------------------------------------
Regards

 

[Almaleki]

@SABRE & Almaleki, I'm going to hazard a guess (to see if my guess will come true). Iraq will buy some 2nd hand F-16s from the US and they will be MLU upgraded F-16s in terms of avionics. My reasons for thinking this way, are as follows:

1. IMHO, F-16s are one of the best value for money (being single engined) multi-role aircraft in the market today (save for the Gripen and the new Korean T-50 Golden Eagle).

2. The USAF is going to retire a number of their F-16s. They can off load these planes going into storage to Iraq (which means not many other suppliers can compete on price and features). And it would be good value for money for Iraq.

3. I think the US Congress will have to agree to sell F-16s (so no problem there - there will be some noise but it will not stop the sale).

(i) The issue for me is not even the purchase price (it's the total support costs and weapons load-out that I'm more concerned for Iraq).

(ii) As for the model, I am guessing the block 50 or 52 (though I'm not so concerned about the avionics for BVR engagements with the AIM-120C).

(iii) I am more concerned about the type of targeting pods sold - as the Iraqi air force will need to provide CAS. Again, I'm much less concerned about the specific munitions or bombs for CAS at this stage.​

4. To some extent, the US has to worry about Iraqi stability after they leave. So they would not want to sell the most capable jets in-case the regime/government in Iraq (5 - 10 years from now) is not friendly to US interests (case in point, the selling of the F-14s to Iran before the fall of the Shah).

What do you think of my speculative analysis?

Good ,
Too Bad the Minister Needs NEW Rubbish kkkkk i mean Weapons , and the Lockhead Martin just Build Block 52- and 52+ and 60 So it Must Be Block 52 and About the Gripen and The T-50 i think that Iraq Have a deal with them BUT the Announced Just About the T-50 But i have to say that they might Need Gripen Rubbish , I Always Hoped that Iraq Buys the Retiring 1200 F-16 ( The Whole Number ) But to be refurbished to Block 52 or 50 ... It will be Great Thing but the Best Percentage for that will be 0.00000000005 % :lul
Too Bad , And About the Techs i really wanted to know Does the F-16 Block 52+ Radar can Go thru The Iranian Defences ?? and if you say that and Iraq Have stability After i dont Know 7 to 10 Years ?? are they Going to sell Us F-35 or F-22 ?? That Will be Awesome ... But Have Less percentage than Buying 1200 REFURBISHED F-16 .
-----------------------------------------------------------------
About the J-17 i dont think that Iraq Looks Forward for Chinese Rubbish ??
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Regards ,
Almaleki ,
Basarh - Iraq

 

[dragonfire]

Retired F-16s ? New Chinese JF-17 would be much better value, they may even get joint-production as part of the deal

Does Iraq currently have the technology base & skill sets for a co-production or licensed production, have such facilities if any been rebuilt (am assuming if any they would have been bombed in the war)

 

[Feanor]

Too Bad cuz Our MoD Minister Dont say Russian Weapons But he Says Russian Rubbish , But the Only thing i know About Russia That They Sell there Best Tech for the Best Price SO i will be Glad to see PAK FA there but that will be After 40 Years ..

and I dont think that Iraqi MoD Minister will ever like the Idea Of Not - New Rubbish , I Dont think he Have the Word : Weapons in his dictionary ...

--------------------------------------------------------------
Regards

I have asked you before to provide a source for that statement. The fact that you contiuously refer to it as an indicator of procurement policy implies that it's characteristic of the Iraqi gov.'s attitude. Please provide the source and context of the remark.

 

[OPSSG]

Before I start, try to cite sources in your posts, if possible.

Too Bad , And About the Techs i really wanted to know Does the F-16 Block 52+ Radar can Go thru The Iranian Defences ??

My prior background was in the army, over 20 years ago. So I'm not very good about explaining air force technology matters or engage in detailed platform comparisons (so please forgive my lack of knowledge in this area).

I think you have to think in terms of a systems fight (i.e. everything that the Iraqi air force can bring to the table) and not just focus on a platform (the F-16s). All modern armies / air forces fight as a system. If you have good doctrine & tactics and have a good systems approach, you can overcome some of the limitations of your platform. So try not to focus too much on the F-16's radar alone. Other factors to consider include:

(i) training (of your pilots in terms of no. of fight hours, mission profile training & even the training and courage of your FACs);

(ii) numbers (of planes);

(iii) technology (ground sensors, UAVs & AWAC support, if any);

(iv) platforms (the F-16's radar & targeting pods); and

(v) the level of C4I systems integration,​

also matter (see what Col John A. Warden III wrote) in relation to a systems level fight. Plus you have good teachers (the USAF, the US Marines & the US Army), so don't worry, they will help Iraq set up a good system for your army and air force.

I think the correct question should be: Can the Iraqi air force establish air superiority in a conflict? It should not be: Can the "radar can go through [X] country's defences?" (BTW, this forum tends to frown on country X vs country Y comparisons, as it is too easy to degenerate into a "pissing contest")

and if you say that and Iraq Have stability After i dont Know 7 to 10 Years ??

I come from a small country - with a population of around 4 million. When we were forced to be independent in 1965, we did not have much hope too. At the time of our independence, we were poor and we had little or no capability to defend ourselves against external aggression. In our case, we were only able to hire some teachers/consultants (from 1 country) to teach us how to set up our army in the late 1960s and early 1970s.

There is always hope that things will get better. But for things to get better, we must try to make it better ourselves.

are they Going to sell Us F-35 or F-22 ?? That Will be Awesome ... But Have Less percentage than Buying 1200 REFURBISHED F-16 .

When I was in the army in the late '80s (my country's air force were operating second-hand A-4s and F-5s). Our CAS was via the A-4S Super Skyhawk (no advanced targeting pod in our planes then, just a brave FAC trying to guide the A-4S to drop a bomb). As a school boy in the early 1980s, I never expected that our air force would one day be able to afford to buy brand new block 52+ F-16Ds or F-15SGs.

All in good time. Your country has oil.

 

[Ryan UK]

Good ,
Too Bad the Minister Needs NEW Rubbish kkkkk i mean Weapons , and the Lockhead Martin just Build Block 52- and 52+ and 60 So it Must Be Block 52 and About the Gripen and The T-50 i think that Iraq Have a deal with them BUT the Announced Just About the T-50 But i have to say that they might Need Gripen Rubbish , I Always Hoped that Iraq Buys the Retiring 1200 F-16 ( The Whole Number ) But to be refurbished to Block 52 or 50 ... It will be Great Thing but the Best Percentage for that will be 0.00000000005 % :lul
Too Bad , And About the Techs i really wanted to know Does the F-16 Block 52+ Radar can Go thru The Iranian Defences ?? and if you say that and Iraq Have stability After i dont Know 7 to 10 Years ?? are they Going to sell Us F-35 or F-22 ?? That Will be Awesome ... But Have Less percentage than Buying 1200 REFURBISHED F-16 .
-----------------------------------------------------------------
About the J-17 i dont think that Iraq Looks Forward for Chinese Rubbish ??
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Regards ,
Almaleki ,
Basarh - Iraq

wow you really do hate anything that isnt made by the US dont ya?
so far according to you the Russian tech is Rubbish, the chinese tech is Rubbish, im pretty sure the next thing out of your mouth will be that European tech is rubbish.

And to answer your question Iraq is nowhere near close enough of an ally to the US to even consider selling the F-22, possibly even to consider the F-35

 

[TanaTana]

It is better for Iraq to get aircraft from both east and the US. Current Iraqi government is favourable to the US. So the US is willing to sell them the F-16s. Anything can happen in the next few years as the US troops is slowly being pulled out of Iraq. There could be a coup, current govt might be toppled, considering Iraq is not really a stable country even with the current US occupation.

What if the US do not like the future govt. No spare parts will be shipped to Iraq. Like what happened to Indonesia, Venezuela, or Thailand (for a short while - US govt do not deal with coup de etat govt.). Then all those nice F-16 will be grounded.

Well I understand that someone will jump up n say to have aircraft for east and west will be logistically wasting. Yup, you are absoulutely right.

India, Pakistan, Malaysia have aircraft from east and west countries for so long. They dont have any problem operating them. Since Iraq has oil, money shud not be any problem for them in the future. Having US and Russian or Chinese aircraft will be better for Iraq in the long run.

 

[OPSSG]

Well I understand that someone will jump up n say to have aircraft for east and west will be logistically wasting. Yup, you are absolutely right.

India, Pakistan, Malaysia have aircraft from east and west countries for so long. They dont have any problem operating them. Since Iraq has oil, money should not be any problem for them in the future. Having US and Russian or Chinese aircraft will be better for Iraq in the long run.

1. No disrespect, but I strongly disagree. Of the 3 countries cited by you (India, Pakistan & Malaysia), only 1 country did it by choice (and possibly against the recommendation of its own armed forces), in the manner you described.

(i) How well did it work out for Malaysia?

- Please show me data that it makes any financial or strategic military sense for Malaysia to have 15x Mig 29s (and with no firm plan to upgrade), 8x F-18Ds and 18x Su-30MKMs.

- Or better yet, please find for me, informed independent published sources that say that this Malaysian arrangement makes logistical sense, financial sense or that it is a good strategic military choice for Malaysia - to have 3 different types of first line fighters.

- In missiles alone, the F-18Ds can't use the R73 & R77 missiles purchased and the Mig-29s and Su-30s cannot use the AIM-120_C5s purchased. Malaysia also has no intention to cross qualify the missiles. Look at Thailand, they went for the Gripen instead of the Su-30.

- Do you know why Malaysia chose the Su-30MKM and did not want the Su-30MKI? I know you are Malaysian and proud of you country's choices. Can you explain your position to me (as an outside observer) in a reasoned and logical manner? :shudder​

(ii) Pakistan had no choice - it was embargoed - so buying the JF-17 makes sense, as it is the choice between having no new fighters or buying the JF-17.

(iii) India's requirements and situation is not comparable to that of Malaysia. Look at the total number of aircraft being purchased by India (it is a major regional power of world standing with nuclear weapons and a space program). Further, could you not also argue that it would be cheaper for India to stick to an all Eastern fighter fleet? In fact, you can even argue that they are inducting western technology into their mainly eastern fighter fleet (to meet the Pakistani air force F-16 threat).

2. Operating aircraft from both eastern and western countries is a big logistic problem and should not be undertaken in concept unless a country has no other choice. IMHO, the solution is not source diversification (to play off US viz Eastern Source) - the solution is have enough spare parts (spare engines, etc) and also a sufficiently strong local engineering capability to overcome any short term embargo period (of 1 to 5 years).

3. If a country is embargoed for the long term by the international community (like Iran and North Korea), it should reflect badly on that government. If a country intends to have anti-Western policies in the long term, then yes, please buy from countries who sell with no strings attached.

 

[Almaleki]

I have asked you before to provide a source for that statement. The fact that you contiuously refer to it as an indicator of procurement policy implies that it's characteristic of the Iraqi gov.'s attitude. Please provide the source and context of the remark.

Ah , Sorry I checked the M1s Topic But Never Post a forward , Well My Resource is the Long War Journal Comments Topics and also The equipments PDF , Sorry that i never Reply on that kkkkk

 

[Almaleki]

Before I start, try to cite sources in your posts, if possible.



My prior background was in the army, over 20 years ago. So I'm not very good about explaining air force technology matters or engage in detailed platform comparisons (so please forgive my lack of knowledge in this area).

I think you have to think in terms of a systems fight (i.e. everything that the Iraqi air force can bring to the table) and not just focus on a platform (the F-16s). All modern armies / air forces fight as a system. If you have good doctrine & tactics and have a good systems approach, you can overcome some of the limitations of your platform. So try not to focus too much on the F-16's radar alone. Other factors to consider include:

(i) training (of your pilots in terms of no. of fight hours, mission profile training & even the training and courage of your FACs);

(ii) numbers (of planes);

(iii) technology (ground sensors, UAVs & AWAC support, if any);

(iv) platforms (the F-16's radar & targeting pods); and

(v) the level of C4I systems integration,​

also matter (see what Col John A. Warden III wrote) in relation to a systems level fight. Plus you have good teachers (the USAF, the US Marines & the US Army), so don't worry, they will help Iraq set up a good system for your army and air force.

I think the correct question should be: Can the Iraqi air force establish air superiority in a conflict? It should not be: Can the "radar can go through [X] country's defences?" (BTW, this forum tends to frown on country X vs country Y comparisons, as it is too easy to degenerate into a "pissing contest")



I come from a small country - with a population of around 4 million. When we were forced to be independent in 1965, we did not have much hope too. At the time of our independence, we were poor and we had little or no capability to defend ourselves against external aggression. In our case, we were only able to hire 7 teachers/consultants (from 1 country) to teach us how to set up our army in the late 1960s and early 1970s.

There is always hope that things will get better. But for things to get better, we must try to make it better ourselves.



When I was in the army in the late '80s (my country's air force were operating second-hand A-4s and F-5s). Our CAS was via the A-4S Super Skyhawk (no advanced targeting pod in our planes then, just a brave FAC trying to guide the A-4S to drop a dumb bomb). As a school boy in the early 1980s, I never expected that our air force would one day be able to afford to buy brand new block 52+ F-16Ds or F-15SGs.

All in good time. Your country has oil.

Resource : LWJ
----------------------------------------------------------------
Ah you are Singaporean you are way way Far Distance from Me thought , But as i know Singapore Dont Have Big Enemies , We have some Who wants Your Land and every INCH in it ?? Thats Why we have Much PPL Concerned with Weaponry stuff , And About comparison Between Iran And Iraq , Well if this Deal Go Thru , Then The Best weapon Do Iran Have is the F-14 Phantom or MiG-31 if there Deal Goes thru the Russian But All of Us know that the MiG-31 isnt Fighter But a Bomber so there best fighter is the F-14 which is Not even Comparable with an F-16 Block 52 and theirs aren't even Working , So I think You Got the Idea .

well i didnt but when i said Radar I think meant all techs ... SomeWay ,About Training i think that The Iraqis are now in this moments are indeed training in Luke Flight Base , and about Courage will they Have Much of It Thought :unknown

and About tech , I think its Up to our Leaders Minds kkkk , and Number then i think that 252 Jt is in the Name a Nuclear Bomb , And the Pods are also Up to the Leaders Tactics and Minds , i dont Know C4I Goes for What do you Mean C4s ?? insanity :nutkick

as You say We Have Courage and Good Teachs , Well about superiority , Its Also Up to our Freakin Leaders ,, kkkkkkkk God Bless Them . well there is Big Things Between Now and 60s and 70s even 80s , well The Last Dont depend on our Leaders Minds but On the Oil and economic System which i indeed hate .

 

[Almaleki]

wow you really do hate anything that isnt made by the US dont ya?
so far according to you the Russian tech is Rubbish, the chinese tech is Rubbish, im pretty sure the next thing out of your mouth will be that European tech is rubbish.

And to answer your question Iraq is nowhere near close enough of an ally to the US to even consider selling the F-22, possibly even to consider the F-35

Well thats is Not me but it will be the Ministers but i think he Like The european Rubbish i mean Weapons .

 

[Almaleki]

It is better for Iraq to get aircraft from both east and the US. Current Iraqi government is favourable to the US. So the US is willing to sell them the F-16s. Anything can happen in the next few years as the US troops is slowly being pulled out of Iraq. There could be a coup, current govt might be toppled, considering Iraq is not really a stable country even with the current US occupation.

What if the US do not like the future govt. No spare parts will be shipped to Iraq. Like what happened to Indonesia, Venezuela, or Thailand (for a short while - US govt do not deal with coup de etat govt.). Then all those nice F-16 will be grounded.

Well I understand that someone will jump up n say to have aircraft for east and west will be logistically wasting. Yup, you are absoulutely right.

India, Pakistan, Malaysia have aircraft from east and west countries for so long. They dont have any problem operating them. Since Iraq has oil, money shud not be any problem for them in the future. Having US and Russian or Chinese aircraft will be better for Iraq in the long run.

i am with you but tell that to the minister i mean a Salad kkkk of the Best will be a great thing , to taste from Russian , China , US , France , Germany , Korea and even South Africa

 

[Almaleki]

1. No disrespect, but I strongly disagree. Of the 3 countries cited by you (India, Pakistan & Malaysia), only 1 country did it by choice (and possibly against the recommendation of its own armed forces), in the manner you described.

(i) How well did it work out for Malaysia?

- Please show me data that it makes any financial or strategic military sense for Malaysia to have 15x Mig 29s (and with no firm plan to upgrade), 8x F-18Ds and 18x Su-30MKMs.

- Or better yet, please find for me, informed independent published sources that say that this Malaysian arrangement makes logistical sense, financial sense or that it is a good strategic military choice for Malaysia - to have 3 different types of first line fighters.

- In missiles alone, the F-18Ds can't use the R73 & R77 missiles purchased and the Mig-29s and Su-30s cannot use the AIM-120_C5s purchased. Malaysia also has no intention to cross qualify the missiles. Look at Thailand, they went for the Gripen instead of the Su-30.

- Do you know why Malaysia chose the Su-30MKM and did not want the Su-30MKI? I know you are Malaysian and proud of you country's choices. Can you explain your position to me (as an outside observer) in a reasoned and logical manner? :shudder​

(ii) Pakistan had no choice - it was embargoed - so buying the JF-17 makes sense, as it is the choice between having no new fighters or buying the JF-17.

(iii) India's requirements and situation is not comparable to that of Malaysia. Look at the total number of aircraft being purchased by India (it is a major regional power of world standing with nuclear weapons and a space program). Further, could you not also argue that it would be cheaper for India to stick to an all Eastern fighter fleet? In fact, you can even argue that they are inducting western technology into their mainly eastern fighter fleet (to meet the Pakistani air force F-16 threat).

2. Operating aircraft from both east and west countries is a big logistic problem and should not be undertaken in concept unless a country has no other choice. IMHO, the solution is not source diversification (to play off US viz Eastern Source) - the solution is have enough spare parts (spare engines, etc) and also a sufficiently strong local engineering capability to overcome any short term embargo period (of 1 to 5 years).

3. If a country is embargoed for a long term by the international community (like Iran and North Korea), it should reflect badly on that government. If a country intends to have anti-Western policies in the long term, then yes, please buy from countries who sell with no strings attached.

My Last Replay on the Tana Tana Reply is WITHDRAWN you convinced me we need Just European and American Ru... Weapons ...

 

[SABRE]

Ah , Sorry I checked the M1s Topic But Never Post a forward , Well My Resource is the Long War Journal Comments Topics and also The equipments PDF , Sorry that i never Reply on that kkkkk

What Feanor means is that you provide your "source of information" here on DT forum. If the "source" is not "online" (internet based) then you can mention it by its name, however only mention the specific/particular source which has published the information instead of everything you have read.