Boeing Unveils New Stealthy F-15

[Vivendi]

Boeing unveils a new stealthy F-15:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/Silent031709.xml&headline=Boeing%20Unveils%20New%20Stealthy%20F-15

To a non-expert like me, this looks like an interesting concept -- not as a competitor to F-35, but perhaps as an interesting alternative to those countries that for some reason or another cannot or will not purchase the F-35, but still would like a "stealth jet" in the inventory.

Would the Eurocanards be able to do something similar? I believe CFTs have been studied for the Eurofighter, but the drawings I've seen indicated CFTs on top of the wings... probably not where you would like to put your missiles!

So what do the experts think of this idea from Boeing? Is this just a desperate attempt to prolong the life of the F-15, or is this a good idea?

V

 

[Scorpion82]

Boeing unveils a new stealthy F-15:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/Silent031709.xml&headline=Boeing%20Unveils%20New%20Stealthy%20F-15

To a non-expert like me, this looks like an interesting concept -- not as a competitor to F-35, but perhaps as an interesting alternative to those countries that for some reason or another cannot or will not purchase the F-35, but still would like a "stealth jet" in the inventory.

Would the Eurocanards be able to do something similar? I believe CFTs have been studied for the Eurofighter, but the drawings I've seen indicated CFTs on top of the wings... probably not where you would like to put your missiles!

So what do the experts think of this idea from Boeing? Is this just a desperate attempt to prolong the life of the F-15, or is this a good idea?

V

Well the concept is interesting, the CFTs with integrated weapon bays in particular. Yet the weapon bays alone won't make it a stealth aircraft. There are more RCS reduction measures on this design such as structural stealth, RAM, radar blockers in the intakes and V-tails. Such measures, except for the V-tails and weapon bays are already integrated into any of the ECDs to a more or less strong degree.

 

[Ananda]

End of F-22 Production..??

Woooww...nice design..I think Boing taking cue from Sukhoi's on continuating and improving existing decades old design..since the market is there...
Aggree it will not be a substitute for F-22, but with this modification..the exixting F-15 fleet seems can continue as supplementary for F-22..

Could it be this a cue that the production line of F-22 will be limited on current 200'ish plan..and no more..??
With cuurent economic conditions in US and continue defence cuts plan..while in the same time maintaning the number of existing fleet does seems esentials...modifying or producing modified F-15 is a smart way..

Afterall if PAK-FA do come out..it will also be in very limited numbers..and this F-15 still can do well against SU 27/30/35 MKM, Eurofighter, and Rafale..righhtt ??

 

[ROCK45]

Rcs

It's interesting but I think the stealth or low RSC with be frontal only. Still very useful in combat don't get wrong might get a little closer to get that good ARRAMS shot in. The Eagle is still a deadly fighter and doesn't automatically lose to Su-30 Flankers, people forget there was a range cap on US missiles in Cope of India.

I don't think it has much to do with the F-22 production lines and more to do with Boeing trying to grab or hold onto as much of the small fighter market as it can. It's F/A-18 Super Hornet isn't breaking sales records and the F-22 still isn't clear for export yet. Japan's market I think is the goal here I maybe wrong but I think that's the focus or hope.

 

[Ananda]

I don't think it has much to do with the F-22 production lines and more to do with Boeing trying to grab or hold onto as much of the small fighter market as it can.

Just want to clarify, the small fighter market in here means to get the market of small fighter or the small size of fighter market ?
Sorry, just I thought the F-15 (especiallly this modified version) can't be clasified as small fighther right ? Afterall even with F-22 in hand, it's still a very capable full size fighter.
I believe even with this modified versions, the potential market will be very limited to the current F-15 users. Still since potential market of this modified F-15 will also the potential market of F-35, it can be attractive option for getting F-35. The F-35 may best it on RCS but on range and avionics + radar, with what Boing have in mind, can provide more or less similar capability package, and best F-35 in range and payload.

So it definetely will not be F-22 contender, but can be alternative for F-35.
Agree though that F-15 still can hold well against Su 30, at them same time Su 30 can hold well with F-15.

 

[OPSSG]

ROCK45, I agree with your analysis that Boeing trying to grab or hold onto as much of the fighter market and the F-15 fighter upgrade market, keeping in mind that the Saudi air force placed 2 orders (in Sept 2008 & Oct 2007) that exceeds $750 million to re-engine their F-15S, just to give an indicative idea of how valuable the F-15 upgrade market can be.

Woooww...nice design...

Woooww too. I'm school boy excited about the the new "Silent Eagle" version which include internal bays within the existing conformal fuel tanks. There is also another write up and video by Flight Global on the 'Silent Eagle' here.

Conforma fuel tanks can be typically removed within an hour or two, so the idea of internal bays within conformal fuel tanks is a great idea for radar signature reduction. However, the current proposed design seems to provide for 4 missiles or alternate bomb carriage. This is a very small 'silent' combat load. In fact, I think they should consider sacrificing more fuel carriage to see if they can put in more.

A relatively cheap upgrade, plus a low risk, low developmental cost idea, for a big potential market segment.

IMHO, the decision not to incorporate more advanced technology into the F-15 platform earlier had always been driven by political and other considerations (not allowing it to take away from F-35 sales). Boeing always had the ability to further upgrade the F-15 platform. However, there was just no funding for it, as USAF development monies were allocated to the F-22 and F-35 programs.

Basically, RCS reduction measures in aircraft will force an upgrade in air defence radars worldwide and push air forces without AWACS towards acquiring them sooner.

Agree it will not be a substitute for F-22, but with this modification..the existing F-15 fleet seems can continue as supplementary for F-22..

Could it be this a cue that the production line of F-22 will be limited on current 200'ish plan..and no more..??

I think Boeing is making a very smart move, as it would help the company generate more sales for an existing platform (to bring jobs almost immediately) as opposed to future jobs to be provided for the F-35 program (which happens to be LM, it's competitor).

In the case of Singapore, if we acquire more F-15SGs beyond the current 24, it would mean that the 'Silent Eagle' may compete against F-35 sales to Singapore. Let me explain. We intend to replace our two current F-5 squadrons. IMHO, one of the F-5 squadrons will be replaced by the F-35. The question, that RSAF will need to ask itself is whether we are going to buy more F-15s OR F-35s for the other F-5 squadron.

For non-US, western orientated operators, the F-15 fleet will supplement the F-35. Keep in mind that many F-15 operators are flying a variant of the F-15E Strike Eagle, which often plays a strike role.

With current economic conditions in US and continue defence cuts plan..while in the same time maintaining the number of existing fleet does seems essentials...modifying or producing modified F-15 is a smart way...

Currently, the USAF plans to operate the F-15 up to 2035 and I certain that other operators intend to keep theirs in service for a even longer time frame. So there is money to be made to sell upgrades to non-US F-15 operators, who also happen to be countries with deep pockets.

Afterall if PAK-FA do come out..it will also be in very limited numbers..and this F-15 still can do well against SU 27/30/35 MKM, Eurofighter, and Rafale..righht ??

Keep in mind, for the F-15 to be in service beyond 2035, it must be able to continue to do well against other fighters. In this respect, the engines available (and being developed) for the F-15 platform must have more power and cost less to maintain. Currently the F-15SGs are powered by the F110-GE-129C, which is also the same model as the Saudi re-engine choice.

 

[Feanor]

Looks like an excellent option for those that need an advanced air superiority bird, but can't afford 5th gen. Definetly competitive in terms of the world market. When can we expect to see it offered for export?

 

[OPSSG]

Looks like an excellent option for those that need an advanced air superiority bird, but can't afford 5th gen. Definitely competitive in terms of the world market. When can we expect to see it offered for export?

Please see Boeing's 'Silent Eagle Int'l' presentation for the media.

I tend to see this media release as relating to Boeing lobbying the US Government to allow them to incorporate more frontal LO features to enhance their current F-15 sales prospects and to keep their US production line open. The new carriage option can also benefit all USAF F-15Es and provides an avionics and DEW upgrade path for the F-15 platform.

Israel has gone further than any non-consortium member toward acquisition, with plans to buy an initial 25 F-35A's in fiscal 2012 for delivery starting in 2014 and an option for 50 more. U.S. instructor pilots would join Israeli pilots to train at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida, on four of the aircraft built for Israel. By early 2015, the U.S. instructors would transition to Israel to continue training pilots there.

Singapore is at least 5 years behind Israel on our F-35 buy plans (ie. 2019 or later first deliveries). If the 'Silent Eagle' development plan is approved, it is a Lockheed Martin vs Boeing dogfight for international fighter sales.

Unlike S. Korean and Japan F-15 sales, all Singapore orders of F-15s will be made in the US, keeping the US F-15 production line open and keeping US jobs. The question is how much LO technology the US will release for Singapore's F-15s. It's got to be meaningful for Singapore to consider more F-15s, which would immediately keep or even grow Boeing jobs in this production line. This will be in contrast to S. Korean and Japan F-15 sales.

I note that the 'Silent Eagle' is a Boeing company proposal. This means it is not external to the company. IMHO, Boeing will have the commercial motivation to make it happen by 2010, otherwise, the potential sales will be eaten up by the F-35 coming on stream later.

 

[OPSSG]

Boeing Unveils Silent Eagle

[Mod edit] Oh no it hasn't! Threads merged.[/Mod edit]
Edit: swerve thanks for the merge. I must be blind last nite.

The previous thread on this topic seem to be gone. I've re-posted some of the links but can't be bothered to rewrite my previous posts on the topic.

March 17, 2009 -- The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] today in St. Louis unveiled the F-15 Silent Eagle (F-15SE), a new F-15 configuration designed to meet the future needs of international customers...

Improvements in stealth include coatings and treatments on the aircraft. With the added advantage of redesigned conformal fuel tanks (CFTs) that allow for internal weapons carriage, the Silent Eagle becomes a very attractive fighter for Boeing's international customers.

Depending on the specific mission, the customer can use the CFTs that are designed for internal carriage or change back to the traditional CFTs for optimum fuel capacity and external weapons carriage. The Silent Eagle will be able to internally carry air-to-air missiles such as the AIM-9 and AIM-120 and air-to-ground weapons such as the Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) and Small Diameter Bomb (SDB). The standard weapons load used on current versions of the F-15 is available with the traditional CFTs installed.

The aircraft's canted vertical tails improve aerodynamic efficiency, provide lift, and reduce airframe weight. Another aerodynamic improvement is the Digital Flight Control System, which improves the aircraft's reliability and reduces airframe weight.

Survivability improvements include a BAES Digital Electronic Warfare System (DEWS) working in concert with the Raytheon Advanced Electronic Scanning Array (AESA) radar.

Boeing has completed a conceptual prototype of the CFT internal-carriage concept, and plans to flight-test a prototype by the first quarter of 2010, including a live missile launch.

There is also a Boeing presentation for media here .

The F-15SE will be able to carry 4 missiles in the CFT to improve frontal aspect LO. BTW, LO for the F-15 was explored a decade ago. It is the internal carriage in the CFT that is a new idea.

This concept is a good idea that potentially can extend the F-15 line beyond the current backlog for South Korea and Singapore.

Boeing lost the Joint Strike Fighter contest to Lockheed Martin, therefore continued F-15 sales, as well as additional orders for F/A-18E/Fs and EA-18Gs, are the only work in the foreseeable future for the plant. For more details also read this.

 

[ROCK45]

Interesting

Seems interesting still plenty of life the mighty F-15 and if the frontal RCS can reduced and could improve first shot/launch potential, not a bad thing.

Boeing trying to hold onto what's left of the worlds small fighter market, can't blame them. Depending on the engine there are a few choices mixed with longer range ARRAAM soon to be out and in testing in New Mexico & AESA radar still deadly. Still the best weapons selection money can buy.

The $100 million price tag doesn't send me into sticker shock any good modern fighter will be in that range if not more in 2009/2010 with goodies included*.

I do feel Japan is the main target market since the F-22 isn't cleared for export yet.

 

[Feanor]

In my opinion it is competitive even against the F-35. For one it would be less expensive. Unified with existing F-15s in terms of maintenance. Many of it's upgrades can be retrofitted to the existing fleet. So a country that either can not secure F-35 orders, or can't afford them, might consider this an alternative.

 

[ROCK45]

Market

Ananda
Just want to clarify, the small fighter market in here means to get the market of small fighter or the small size of fighter market ?

I meant the worlds small fighter market the F-15 could never be considered a small fighter.

Hi OPSSG

OPSSG
Saudi air force orders (in Sept 2008 & Oct 2007) that exceeds $750 million to re-engine their F-15S, just to give an indicative idea of how valuable the F-15 upgrade market can be.

I assume this order was filled already? Would have been interesting if this F-15SE was on the table three or four years ago? Can't remember remember off the top of my head when they sign the Typhoon deal.

Doesn't the E/F Super Hornet cost a little more per? Unless a user already uses Eagles I think the Super Hornet may have a longer future, comparing the two.

It is exciting news it's one of my all time favorite aircraft I've seen them fly a few times at air shows, I saw all four of the teen series even F-14s too.

 

[Ananda]

In my opinion it is competitive even against the F-35. For one it would be less expensive. Unified with existing F-15s in terms of maintenance. Many of it's upgrades can be retrofitted to the existing fleet. So a country that either can not secure F-35 orders, or can't afford them, might consider this an alternative.

I aggree that it can be an atractive alternative to F-35, however with the price tag of USD 100 mio, it will cost same or maybe even higher than F-35 right ? So Affordability will not be an issue here (since it will cost in similar range with F-35).

Also I believe the US will only give this aircraft to the same countries that eligible for F-35 (alias US so called first circle allies), thus the others have to content with F-16 Blok 50/60 or non US Gen 4.5 like Rafale, EF, SU 27/30/35 MKM. Boeing seems hoping to get to the market that now using EF or Flankers, but with US restrictions, I believe the market is there but will be very limited...well the price will also make it very limited though

 

[OPSSG]

The Japan and Korea order potential is much larger in scale than most countries I can think of and they are already existing F-15 users. Potentially, Singapore (who is officially not a special relationship country or an official ally ) could be buying Korean sourced parts for the F-15SG after 2035.

Unless a user already uses Eagles I think the Super Hornet may have a longer future, comparing the two.

It is exciting news it's one of my all time favorite aircraft I've seen them fly a few times at air shows, I saw all four of the teen series even F-14s too.

I'm not sure at the moment which platform has a longer future (because of the Koreans, who have spanking new F-15Ks), but if the Super Hornet scores a win in India, it would ensure the platform's longevity even after the USN starts phasing them out. Korea, Japan and Singapore should also keep F-15s flying way beyond 2035.

IIRC, in relation to the Super Hornet, the Australians also have a really good long term plan, including building some of theirs with Growler wiring harnesses for future conversion.

As I previously admitted in another thread, my weakness is for the F-14 (absolutely love it).

I assume this [Saudi F-15 re-engine] order was filled already? Would have been interesting if this F-15SE was on the table three or four years ago? Can't remember remember off the top of my head when they sign the Typhoon deal.

I believe the engines in 2nd Saudi order is still being built or in the process of being installed in the Saudi F-15s.

Further, I don't think that the Saudi case is a good example of a F-15 vs Typhoon choice due to US concerns for Israel's security, which resulted in the Saudi F-15S having some limitations on their capabilities. I quote Greg Goebel, who said:

Saudi Arabia has received a good number of F-15s under the "Peace Sun" series of export programs. The first deliveries provided 46 F-15Cs and 16 F-15Ds, for a total of 62 aircraft; the US Congress had specified that the Saudis should have no more than 60 Eagles...

The Saudis received 72 F-15S Eagles from 1995 into 2000... The F-15S features a slightly simplified "AN/APG-70S" radar that deletes terrain-mapping mode and has a downgraded self-defense suite. The Saudis did obtain 48 sets of a simplified version of the LANTIRN pod system, featuring the AN/AAQ-19 Sharpshooter targeting pod and the AN/AAQ-20 Pathfinder navigation pod. Some sources claim these aircraft were initially delivered with Dash-1-style CFTs, meaning that offensive stores had to be carried on the centerline and wing pylons, usually with multiple-ejector racks -- but the Saudis later received the full Dash-4 CFTs with their stores attachments. There was some fuss in the Congress over the sale of the F-15S to Saudi Arabia, which helped lead to the later sale of the F-15I to Israel as a counterbalance.

 

[funtz]

I aggree that it can be an atractive alternative to F-35, however with the price tag of USD 100 mio, it will cost same or maybe even higher than F-35 right ? So Affordability will not be an issue here (since it will cost in similar range with F-35).

Also I believe the US will only give this aircraft to the same countries that eligible for F-35 (alias US so called first circle allies), thus the others have to content with F-16 Blok 50/60 or non US Gen 4.5 like Rafale, EF, SU 27/30/35 MKM. Boeing seems hoping to get to the market that now using EF or Flankers, but with US restrictions, I believe the market is there but will be very limited...well the price will also make it very limited though

I Agree, might as wait till 2020-2025 and buy a F-35 when the costs become stable instead of going for this expensive plane, which with AESA radar and all the ram coatings etc. will become more expensive.

First, Boeing says the F-15SE can match the frontal-aspect stealth performance of the export version of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

Just like that, this F-35 is supposed to have utilized the knowledge of trillion dollar US VLO R&D over the past programs.

 

[Haavarla]

I Agree, might as wait till 2020-2025 and buy a F-35 when the costs become stable instead of going for this expensive plane, which with AESA radar and all the ram coatings etc. will become more expensive.

Umm.. do we know what the final prize tag on the F-35 will be?

Just like that, this F-35 is supposed to have utilized the knowledge of trillion dollar US VLO R&D over the past programs.

Get the point, but keep in mind that the F-35 is a completly new design and US R&D are as always the world champ in sky high cost in these development programs.

 

[funtz]

Umm.. do we know what the final prize tag on the F-35 will be?

Not quite the final costs but news reports have stated different prices for different times (2015-20) and they are decreasing steadily to somewhere below the 100 million mark.

Get the point, but keep in mind that the F-35 is a completely new design and US R&D are as always the world champ in sky high cost in these development programs.

Still i mean, thats like saying F-35 level stealth (in terms of the RCS) is not all that difficult to achieve.

The F-35 still has a lot of cutting edge electronics installed inside it, and its new so more ready for future upgrades instead of the older F-15

 

[OPSSG]

Umm.. do we know what the final prize tag on the F-35 will be?

Aviation week has a Feb 2009 article which provides the following estimates:

F-35A (1st lot LRIP - for the x2 F-35) = US$200m
F-35A (2nd lot LRIP- for the x6 F-35) = US$160m
F-35A after LRIP = US$70-75m (in 2014 dollars)
F-35B after LRIP = US$80-85m (in 2014 dollars)

Nailing down the price of an F-35 is a complicated task. One problem is that the earlier you buy them, the more they cost and production isn’t scheduled to end until 2035.

Boeing has completed a conceptual prototype of the CFT internal-carriage concept, and plans to flight-test a prototype by the first quarter of 2010. This means that the F-15SE is ready for orders in 2010 for 2012 delivery much earlier than you can place orders for the F-35 if you are not one of the 8 partner nations or the 2 current Security Cooperative Participants (SCP) countries (Israel* & Singapore).

Basically, other potential F-35 buyers (not currently signed on as a partner or SCP) will get to place their orders much later than the two SCP countries, who paid US$50 million each to be a SCP.

*Note: Israel, as a special relationship country with the US has been assisted by the US, with the US giving up their F-35 production slots to enable Israel to buy the F-35 earlier. The giving up of early production slots by the US or partner nations may not occur with later buyers and they may just have to wait their turn (which may mean a 5 to 15 year wait from F-15SE availability).

In March 2009, UK signed a deal to purchase 3x F35B for the operational test and evaluation phase of the program (to be delivered in 2011 to 2012). For UK, the only Tier 1 partner nation, a decision on the procurement number, and F-35 variant, will not be taken until around 2013. The F-35 aircraft is due to enter service in 2017.

A hat tip to weasel1962 for posting the F-35 price estimates in another forum first.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

So is there any chance that the USAF will get some of these to replace its older F-15s as that they might not get all of the F-22s needed?

And how many air to air missiles does this F-15 SE carry is it 4 internal missiles like the F-35?

Looks like a cool design by the way and I hope the USAF does get at least 100 of these.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

However, the current proposed design seems to provide for 4 missiles or alternate bomb carriage. This is a very small 'silent' combat load. In fact, I think they should consider sacrificing more fuel carriage to see if they can put in more.

Currently, the USAF plans to operate the F-15 up to 2035 and I certain that other operators intend to keep theirs in service for a even longer time frame. So there is money to be made to sell upgrades to non-US F-15 operators, who also happen to be countries with deep pockets.

Keep in mind, for the F-15 to be in service beyond 2035, it must be able to continue to do well against other fighters. In this respect, the engines available (and being developed) for the F-15 platform must have more power and cost less to maintain. Currently the F-15SGs are powered by the F110-GE-129C, which is also the same model as the Saudi re-engine choice.

Well right now the F-35 only caries 4 internal missiles but it can be upgraded to 6 which is most likely so I don't see this as being an issue with the F-15 SE.

And since the USAF plans to operation the F-15 for so long they should buy some of these F-15SEs to replace its older F-15 A-D models.